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convert radio as amp (help)
11/9/2010 4:27:00 PMAlexander
Hi, I have a mopar 802 car radio (by philco) that I want to convert to take an input from my Mp3 player. some one suggested I can do that by disconnecting one wire from the volume control and using it as the input lead (audio in). I was instructed to find the "high side" of the volume control by seeing which one moves the ohm meter against ground. In my case it turned out to be the center of the 3 wires on the volume control. I wired the a 1/8 phone jack to interrupt this wire and fed the mp3 signal in to it. All seems to work great, but I am not able to control the volume via the radio. Is there another way to wire in the mp3 player so I can control the volume via the radio rather then through the mp3 player. Thank you
11/9/2010 4:38:29 PMWarren
The advice you were given is about half right. It is the high side of the volume control to make your connection. It is not the center lug though. By connecting to the center lug, you have now bypassed the volume control.
11/9/2010 6:51:22 PMAlexander
Hi Warren thanks for the feedback. would you happen to know the mopar 802 chassis or schematics and advise what wire I should should tap in to? Also, I have conflucting information on how to combine the Left and right channels of the mp3 player to creat a mono feed for the radio. in some cases i read it needs a 2k resistor on each channel tied together and in others i read the need for .1uf capacitors in addtion to the resistors. which would provide the best audio and what is the technical need for the resistors & capacitors? Thanks!
11/9/2010 7:49:49 PMTerry Decker
:Hi Warren thanks for the feedback. would you happen to know the mopar 802 chassis or schematics and advise what wire I should should tap in to? Also, I have conflucting information on how to combine the Left and right channels of the mp3 player to creat a mono feed for the radio. in some cases i read it needs a 2k resistor on each channel tied together and in others i read the need for .1uf capacitors in addtion to the resistors. which would provide the best audio and what is the technical need for the resistors & capacitors? Thanks!
:
That's the best advice I can give you. I'm sure other members can expound, (or disagree).
Terry
11/9/2010 8:28:57 PMalexander
Ok sounds good, I wont question the need for the caps any further:-). Ill proceed to wire the resistor and caps as suggested. I my only challange left is to find the correct area where to tap in to so that I can control the volume via radio. Does anyone know the mopar 802 (by philco) radio to suggest where I can tap in? I am just a young kid trying to help grandpa with his tube radio. He gave me his 1947 plymouth radio to fix. I recaped the radio and it works great, but now I want to surprise him and install an input jack so he can play some oldies via the mp3 player. I feel i am very close, disconecting the center tap of the volume and feeding there seems to work, but i cant figure out where to tap in so that the volume will be controled via radio knob. I know basic electronics, but not enough to be able to interput the complex tube schmetics. Thanks!


11/9/2010 9:00:01 PMWarren
Yes, you were close. The connection is one side of the volume control. Try one side or the other until you get the right side. Be sure to use and wire a jack so the radio will play again when the mp3 player is unplugged. Use shielded cable too.
11/9/2010 10:45:43 PMEdd











Sir Alexander. . . . .


Considering that your Philco 802 is the newer one, being for use in the late 40's Plymouth and Chrysler "boxcars".


Consult my clarified thumbnail schematic of its relevant circuitry.


Looks like you initially ended up with your audio input coming in and being across the wiper of the vol-you-me control and . . . you "found ground" . . and got that last connection right ! But, with that hook up resulting in poor effectiveness in the control of the volume.


Instead, make your hook up as the [YELLOW] box audio source(MP-3) is shown, in its being placed across ground and the active signal of the Emm Pee- 3 player and having audio signal coming in to the #3 [FUCHSIA] circle.


Previously, you were feeding the signal into the #2 [BLUE] circle.


It's sort of a toss up in the stereo blending of two channels into mono for the input.


In reality that MP-3 player is a quite LOW impedance trying to go into a 100's of thousands ohms impedance of a tubes grid circuitry.


Why don't you initially go with the two L & R inputs coupling in thru 2 ufd capacitors and tying together and that common then going to a 1k resistor, which has its other end going into the high side of the volume control.


Run an evaluative listening test of the bass-treble distribution spectrum.


If too much treble raise the 1k in 5 K increments.
If any chance of excess bass ? . . . decrease the 1 ufd couplers values.


There is such a real mismatch in SS/tube interfacing, you are really just trying to get the
best compromise for your ears.


Remember . . . Confucius say . . . . MP-3's sure ain't CD's !







Now if you happen to not intend on making your intrfacing connection right in at the vol-you-me control proper, in consulting the photo below, you can see the Motorola style antenna connector coming in, just off from bottom center, your concerned circuitry area is at the bottom center area, just to its right, and you can see the conjoined 220k res and the 1 meg unit resistors, and then over to the right, you can just barely see the edge of the 10 meg grid resistor showing itself as it is gettting connected by the lower central yellow coupling capacitor, witgh its black spaghetti going up to pin #3 of the audio preamp tube.


Several of those resistors, I have fully marked up on the reference thumbnail schematic.


There are two resistors that are going to be routed to connect to the high side of the volume control . .
R303 and R301, while the rotor of the volume control is receiving R307 thru C 303.







A VOLUME CONTROLS . . . TERMINAL IDENTIFICATION . . . AID:




To get your mind right with apprehending volume control mechanics, kick your perspective into FULL X-RAY VISION mode and think of the grasping of the volume control shaft and turning its control shaft CW, and in that manner you will be rotating an end wiper contact peripherally around the resistance control element.


That action eventually has that wiper (#2) approaching the grounded end contact (#1) and the input audio is then progressively diminished to almost zero level.


Should you now rotate the shaft clockwise, the rotor wiper will start coming off from a grounded condition and approaching the #3 . . . “high side” . . . terminal of the volume control and is able then to receive progressively more audio level.


Thassit . . . . . now in the future, if you will merely close your eyes and visualize that prior analysis, a volume controls connections . . . as per, which is which . . .will never confuse you again.




73's de Edd








:Yes, you were close. The connection is one side of the volume control. Try one side or the other until you get the right side. Be sure to use and wire a jack so the radio will play again when the mp3 player is unplugged. Use shielded cable too.
:

11/9/2010 10:50:29 PMand turning its shaft CCW
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:Sir Alexander. . . . .
:
:
:Considering that your Philco 802 is the newer one, being for use in the late 40's Plymouth and Chrysler "boxcars".
:
:
:Consult my clarified thumbnail schematic of its relevant circuitry.
:
:
:Looks like you initially ended up with your audio input coming in and being across the wiper of the vol-you-me control and . . . you "found ground" . . and got that last connection right ! But, with that hook up resulting in poor effectiveness in the control of the volume.
:
:
:Instead, make your hook up as the [YELLOW] box audio source(MP-3) is shown, in its being placed across ground and the active signal of the Emm Pee- 3 player and having audio signal coming in to the #3 [FUCHSIA] circle.
:
:
:Previously, you were feeding the signal into the #2 [BLUE] circle.
:
:
:It's sort of a toss up in the stereo blending of two channels into mono for the input.
:
:
:In reality that MP-3 player is a quite LOW impedance trying to go into a 100's of thousands ohms impedance of a tubes grid circuitry.
:
:
:Why don't you initially go with the two L & R inputs coupling in thru 2 ufd capacitors and tying together and that common then going to a 1k resistor, which has its other end going into the high side of the volume control.
:
:
:Run an evaluative listening test of the bass-treble distribution spectrum.
:
:
:If too much treble raise the 1k in 5 K increments.
:If any chance of excess bass ? . . . decrease the 1 ufd couplers values.
:
:
:There is such a real mismatch in SS/tube interfacing, you are really just trying to get the
:best compromise for your ears.
:
:
:Remember . . . Confucius say . . . . MP-3's sure ain't CD's !
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:Now if you happen to not intend on making your intrfacing connection right in at the vol-you-me control proper, in consulting the photo below, you can see the Motorola style antenna connector coming in, just off from bottom center, your concerned circuitry area is at the bottom center area, just to its right, and you can see the conjoined 220k res and the 1 meg unit resistors, and then over to the right, you can just barely see the edge of the 10 meg grid resistor showing itself as it is gettting connected by the lower central yellow coupling capacitor, witgh its black spaghetti going up to pin #3 of the audio preamp tube.
:
:
: Several of those resistors, I have fully marked up on the reference thumbnail schematic.
:
:
:There are two resistors that are going to be routed to connect to the high side of the volume control . .
:R303 and R301, while the rotor of the volume control is receiving R307 thru C 303.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: A VOLUME CONTROLS . . . TERMINAL IDENTIFICATION . . . AID:
:

:
:
:
:To get your mind right with apprehending volume control mechanics, kick your perspective into FULL X-RAY VISION mode and think of the grasping of the volume control shaft and turning its control shaft CW, and in that manner you will be rotating an end wiper contact peripherally around the resistance control element.
:
:
: That action eventually has that wiper (#2) approaching the grounded end contact (#1) and the input audio is then progressively diminished to almost zero level.
:
:
:Should you now rotate the shaft clockwise, the rotor wiper will start coming off from a grounded condition and approaching the #3 . . . “high side” . . . terminal of the volume control and is able then to receive progressively more audio level.
:
:
:Thassit . . . . . now in the future, if you will merely close your eyes and visualize that prior analysis, a volume controls connections . . . as per, which is which . . .will never confuse you again.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:73's de Edd

:
:
:


:

:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
::Yes, you were close. The connection is one side of the volume control. Try one side or the other until you get the right side. Be sure to use and wire a jack so the radio will play again when the mp3 player is unplugged. Use shielded cable too.
::
:
11/10/2010 12:39:09 AMMarv Nuce
Ah EDD,
Once again your picture is worth my 1000 words,but do you recommend a disconnect from radio audio or just a quiet spot on the dial, when using the mp3? I did a refurb on an 802 from a '47 Plymouth here in So CA. Wouldn't it be ironic, if it was the same. Instead of an NOS vibrator (requiring opening and burnishing the points), I did the same on the original with success.

marv


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:
:
:
:
:
:
:Sir Alexander. . . . .
:
:
:Considering that your Philco 802 is the newer one, being for use in the late 40's Plymouth and Chrysler "boxcars".
:
:
:Consult my clarified thumbnail schematic of its relevant circuitry.
:
:
:Looks like you initially ended up with your audio input coming in and being across the wiper of the vol-you-me control and . . . you "found ground" . . and got that last connection right ! But, with that hook up resulting in poor effectiveness in the control of the volume.
:
:
:Instead, make your hook up as the [YELLOW] box audio source(MP-3) is shown, in its being placed across ground and the active signal of the Emm Pee- 3 player and having audio signal coming in to the #3 [FUCHSIA] circle.
:
:
:Previously, you were feeding the signal into the #2 [BLUE] circle.
:
:
:It's sort of a toss up in the stereo blending of two channels into mono for the input.
:
:
:In reality that MP-3 player is a quite LOW impedance trying to go into a 100's of thousands ohms impedance of a tubes grid circuitry.
:
:
:Why don't you initially go with the two L & R inputs coupling in thru 2 ufd capacitors and tying together and that common then going to a 1k resistor, which has its other end going into the high side of the volume control.
:
:
:Run an evaluative listening test of the bass-treble distribution spectrum.
:
:
:If too much treble raise the 1k in 5 K increments.
:If any chance of excess bass ? . . . decrease the 1 ufd couplers values.
:
:
:There is such a real mismatch in SS/tube interfacing, you are really just trying to get the
:best compromise for your ears.
:
:
:Remember . . . Confucius say . . . . MP-3's sure ain't CD's !
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:Now if you happen to not intend on making your intrfacing connection right in at the vol-you-me control proper, in consulting the photo below, you can see the Motorola style antenna connector coming in, just off from bottom center, your concerned circuitry area is at the bottom center area, just to its right, and you can see the conjoined 220k res and the 1 meg unit resistors, and then over to the right, you can just barely see the edge of the 10 meg grid resistor showing itself as it is gettting connected by the lower central yellow coupling capacitor, witgh its black spaghetti going up to pin #3 of the audio preamp tube.
:
:
: Several of those resistors, I have fully marked up on the reference thumbnail schematic.
:
:
:There are two resistors that are going to be routed to connect to the high side of the volume control . .
:R303 and R301, while the rotor of the volume control is receiving R307 thru C 303.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: A VOLUME CONTROLS . . . TERMINAL IDENTIFICATION . . . AID:
:

:
:
:
:To get your mind right with apprehending volume control mechanics, kick your perspective into FULL X-RAY VISION mode and think of the grasping of the volume control shaft and turning its control shaft CW, and in that manner you will be rotating an end wiper contact peripherally around the resistance control element.
:
:
: That action eventually has that wiper (#2) approaching the grounded end contact (#1) and the input audio is then progressively diminished to almost zero level.
:
:
:Should you now rotate the shaft clockwise, the rotor wiper will start coming off from a grounded condition and approaching the #3 . . . “high side” . . . terminal of the volume control and is able then to receive progressively more audio level.
:
:
:Thassit . . . . . now in the future, if you will merely close your eyes and visualize that prior analysis, a volume controls connections . . . as per, which is which . . .will never confuse you again.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:73's de Edd

:
:
:


:

:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
::Yes, you were close. The connection is one side of the volume control. Try one side or the other until you get the right side. Be sure to use and wire a jack so the radio will play again when the mp3 player is unplugged. Use shielded cable too.
::
:

11/10/2010 1:00:59 AMRegarding Impedance Matching
I find that a 12.6V filament transformer from Radio Shack does a nice job of matching my laptop or iPod to my radios, when I wish to play music through them. Purchase the smallest size transformer and connect the 12.6V side to the iPod. Connect the 120V side to the outside terminals of the volume control of your car radio. In order to listen to the radio you must disconnect this transformer, so it is best to just install a jack on the radio and leave the transformer as an external device.

Without the transformer you may find inadequate gain due to the impedance mismatch.

Regarding playing the radio or the iPod, I find that it is only necessary to tune to a quiet spot on the dial and then plug in the iPod or the iPod-transformer combination, and the radio itself becomes quiet enough for good listening of the iPod. Either the iPod on its own, or through a transformer, is low enough in impedance to quiet the radio's circuitry for the most part, especially if tuned to a quiet area on the dial.

--Thomas Dermody

11/10/2010 7:28:40 PMAlexander
Folks,

Many thanks for the very informative feedback. I will follow the schemtics posted by edd. The transformer idea for impediance matching sounds like a good idea, but i guess Ill first try the capasitor/resistor methode first. Ill post my results in the days to come. Thanks!!

11/10/2010 8:49:22 PMThomas Dermody
In some cases you may need capacitors or resistors to blend the two channels, even when using a transformer. I find that sometimes there is distortion if I don't use these methods.

The transformer will give you more gain and will balance the frequency spectrum more.

T/

11/11/2010 3:39:58 PMalexander
with regards to unsing a transformer, would the littil radio shack trasform work? please see link:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103254
11/11/2010 1:04:02 AMPeter G Balazsy
Hi Alexander:
This dual-channel RadioShack ( or similar) ground loop isolator ( 1:1 ratio) transformer would also certainly address the chassis/signal isolation problem?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214

11/11/2010 5:01:58 PMTerry Decker
:Hi Alexander:
:This dual-channel RadioShack ( or similar) ground loop isolator ( 1:1 ratio) transformer would also certainly address the chassis/signal isolation problem?
:
:http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214
:
:
Note #2: Whenever you convert a stereo signal to mono, there will be some signals out of phase. Normally this won't be noticeable, but if you hear a vocal suddenly appear low and in the background, that signal was using some sort of phasing, possibly for an effect.
Terry

11/11/2010 11:34:02 PMEdd










Sir Alexander. . . . .




Specifications:


Audio Output Transformer


Model: EI-19


Catalog #: 273-1380

(Frequency range of 300Hz-10kHz.)


Soooooo, if you want a strong bass, this may not be the best choice.



No lets further clarify that . . . . as not strong, but just PLAIN bass . . . as that 300~ is just at the bottom of the typical male voice range.


That micro unit is for a TRANSISTOR application and also doesn't set to well in the low impedances being involved with its use. . . . in its interfacing into a high Z tubes grid circuitry.


Now, I was thinking of the use of a filament transformer as well, since we KNOW that one of them is having enough "core materiel mass " to be effective on down to 60~.


But my mind was also onset of the TYPICALLY PHYSICALLY LARGE size of the transformer that Radio Shack would be offering.


Now a 500 ma or 250 ma secondary would be just absolutely fine on its finitely MEAGER secondary current rating requirements, but nowadays I don't see that small of a transformer being readily available . . . .adjunct with a secondary MAIN criterion of being . . . cheeeeeeeep.


Now in taking a page out of my current book, I am presently snapping up every switch mode power supply that I run across in a WALL WART type of construction.


I have got most of my frequented thrift shops and pawn shops letting me know that they have one/some in and and readily accepting my bid of "fiffy" cent apiece.


SEEMS that they see the typical window shopper is asking for a preeee-cisely EXXXXX-ACT number or else one that is mating up to a very SPECIAL connector, so they just don't move units very well at all.


Me, I just confirm the dual 240-120AC input spec, as well as confirming with its very light weight and go for it.


Why ? . . . because I can salvage the internal switch mode IC with its power FET driver inside, its CHEAPER that I can order one plus its postage/handling . . . plus the additional isolative transformer and the other nanosecond rise time diodes and gooodies also included inside.


Now keeping in that perspective of a WALL WART. . . . just find one of that is having an ~10-12 V output range and the all important aspect of a 120 VAC primary winding on a conventional iron core transformer being inside.


You can typically additionally determine that by comparing the weight aspect, pick up a switch mode unit and you will find it being as light as a popcorn fart, in their relative weight comparisons.


Sooooooooo . . . look into salvaging a conventional iron core power transformer that is inside of a conventional 120 VAC wall wart. It has small size, as required . . . .'nuff metal to work into the low audio spectrum . . . along with your not getting "scalped" if even you're having to pay out a WHOLE buck for it !

You additionally need to look into the disconnecting of the transformer from the tie in to the volume control / tube 1st grid circuitry, EVEN if using a DC isolative input coupling capacitor in series with the transformer secondary winding.


Since, if left in circuit during radio playing, its presence will severely siphon away 'most all of your treble response of the radios audio.




ASIDE . . . in the general direction of Sir Marvin



" But do you recommend a disconnect from radio audio or just a quiet spot on the dial, when using the mp3? "



A disconnect, just by virtue of the above info.


The "tuning" to a quiet place on the dial only worked with my '55 Crown Victoria, wherein I had built an enclosed rectangular housing under the center dash.


That housing containing a pull out drawer which had a RCA 45 automatic record changer mounted upon a block of foam rubber. A Terado DC to 117 VAC 60~ vibrator type inverter powered the phono motor . . . OR my electric razor.

The phono cartridges audio output was routed up to an new RCA input jack going into the high side of the volume control.

No problem here, with an infinitely high cartridge Z interfacing into tube circuitry.


Mechanico-Debugging consisted of a counterbalancing of the arm, with an adjustable weight on a threaded rod behind the tone arm to be able to EQUALLY balance out the lateral MASS of the arm . . . as being referenced to its support and pivoting axis.

That balancing procedure, precluded the arm swinging across the record grooves, on any other than a fast and HARD turn.


The very front of the arm had a tiny felt pad cemented upon it, so that the end of the tone arm was continually riding in grooves of the record.


The final alteration was then the additional floating of the cartridge by a cross a pin at its rear, such that only the actual weight of the cartridge proper itself was producing the resultant stylus tracking weight.


A few years later, Chrysler came out with an OPTIONAL record player in a car . . . Now can you imagine such ?


(Captive market special records too !)





ON THE RADIO SHACK ISOLATION TRANSFORMER ASPECT:




Now, the above unit contains (2)X of :



And those two units additionally have the same blasé reponse as the aforementioned 1273-1380 RS output transformer:

300Hz to 5KHz response


Impedance 600-900 ohms

Also take note of the matching impedance of the units, being . . . way . .way . . . WAYYYYY above the MP-3 input impedance, along with the unit additionally being a 1:1 match and no upping of Z towards approaching that infinitely higher tube input impedance.


(HOWEVER . . . that units 600 Z would be RIGHT ON, if being used for for telephone work or making a Hams phone patch.)


I still prefer the very initially mentioned 60~ power/filament/wall wart transformer with what voltage and Z step up that it will additionally be affording.



73's de Edd







::Hi Alexander:
::This dual-channel RadioShack ( or similar) ground loop isolator ( 1:1 ratio) transformer would also certainly address the chassis/signal isolation problem?
::
::http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214
::
::
:
:Note: You'll still need a "Y"adapter.
:Note #2: Whenever you convert a stereo signal to mono, there will be some signals out of phase. Normally this won't be noticeable, but if you hear a vocal suddenly appear low and in the background, that signal was using some sort of phasing, possibly for an effect.
:Terry
:
:

11/9/2010 11:27:31 PMMarv Nuce
Alexander,
I restored a Mopar 802 a while back and the high side of the volume control (R305A 350k ohms marker "L" on the schematic) where you make the connection should have a wire, and 1 meg ohm resistor from 1st audio detector (Brown/black/green/silver color bands) The center (wiper) where you are now connected will have a 0.05 microfarad capacitor, but you'll have no control of the volume connected there, except at the player. You'll need a special audio jack or manual switch to interrupt the radio audio from the volume control, when using the mp3, otherwise tell Grandpa to tune to a quiet spot on the dial before using the mp3. Switching the resistor (R303) in/out for radio/mp3 operation, either with a manual switch or appropriate audio jack will do the job. Remember R303 connected for radio, disconnected for mp3. The other suggestions for caps and resistors are correct. One of Grandpa's small pill bottles can be used to contain the audio jack/manual switch, resistor and caps. A 3 conductor shielded audio cable is recommended from the pill bottle to the radio, or make your own with 3 wires and a braided shield stripped from old VCR/CATV cable. According to my schematic, doesn't appear to be any lethal DC voltages at that point, but be careful.

marv

:Hi, I have a mopar 802 car radio (by philco) that I want to convert to take an input from my Mp3 player. some one suggested I can do that by disconnecting one wire from the volume control and using it as the input lead (audio in). I was instructed to find the "high side" of the volume control by seeing which one moves the ohm meter against ground. In my case it turned out to be the center of the 3 wires on the volume control. I wired the a 1/8 phone jack to interrupt this wire and fed the mp3 signal in to it. All seems to work great, but I am not able to control the volume via the radio. Is there another way to wire in the mp3 player so I can control the volume via the radio rather then through the mp3 player. Thank you
:



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