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Blown 5Y3G repaired
10/12/2009 1:52:15 PMBill G.
Hi All,
We expect to open up vibrators and work on the points to get them operating again, but assume that tubes are not repairable. Think again.
I have a Zenith 5S127 which I use daily. On September 25, 2006 the 5Y3G went out. The audio faded in and out as though it was tuned to a distant station. It was tuned to a local station, though.
I put it on the tube tested and the tube lit then went out then lit and went out. Eventually it went out not to come back.
Resistance across the filament was about 20 ohms, too high for a cold filament. The tube showed no signs of being gassy. The filament had no breaks in it. I tossed it aside, perplexed as to what the problem was. I have a 5Y3GT tube which replaced it well, but I still wanted the ST glass tube that was original.
Today I was wondering exactly how octal tubes were manufactured, whether the wires from the bulb were put through the pins, cut and then soldered or put throught the pins soldered and then cut.
This tube happened to be near by, so grabbed it and a magnifier and happened to look at pin 2. What did I see, but what was obviously a cold solder joint! I reflowed the solder on both pin 2 and 8, and the tube came to life!
This filament draws 2 amps. Any little resistance goes a long way in cutting current flow to the filiment.
The failure mechanism is this. Over the 70 years this tube was in service the wire that goes to the filament has been heating and expanding at turn on and cooling and shrinking at turn off. Over the years it worked the solder joint at pin 2 loose. The result is a repairable tube failure.
You may want to look for tubes that failed with intermittant filament problems that got worse.
By the way wires were inserted, soldered, and then clipped.

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm

10/12/2009 3:01:28 PMWarren
Years ago when the 21 inch CRT was common. ( Big Base ) there was a crimping tool made to cure intermittent or open wire connections in the pins. It went over the pin, had a lever to pull up, that made a crimp to hold the inside wire to the pins.
10/12/2009 8:15:36 PMEdd










. . . . .Sir Bill:



And here I was imagining a pulling off of the base and the diamond scribing around the periphery of the bottom of the glass envelope and a surgical crack of that envelope.


And then, the inspection of the filamental superstructure and pulling out of the "Svedish micro tweezers" and stereo microscope for a closer inspection of the filament proper to see if a rework on a spot weld was necessary.


Since the heavy "band" construction of those filaments is used, it almost precludes the development of a hot spot and erosion across the filament to end up with an open circuit.


BUT ! ! ! you would have found the problem at the onset, with your having to pull the socket and the detection of that distinctive darker grey to black appearance of that grainy solder remnant still left between the filament wire and the base pin.


That problem was readily apparent back in the hey- days of the use of the 5Y3' s and, its even hotter running, 5U4 big brother.



The usual situation for the first timer with a bright enough "bulb" to be able to realize what was actually happening, was to try to force solder within the tip of the two filamant pins. BUT if you have ever torn down a tube to see the wire leads coming from from
the envelope glass frit seal areas, we know how well that oxidized wire conditon is to even accepting any further solder at all. Even when being activated with a flux, with the exception of a VERY aggressive cleaning flux, akin to nitric or hydrochloric acids.


HOWEVER his next step on the learning curve was the finding that the use of a small mill or triangular file would permit the filing
away of the two filament pins on their outer exposed periphery, such that a slot is formed with a view of the internal wire then exposed.



That slot then lets one scrape the wire down inside, where its full length is exposed, with the micro tip of the finest gauge of jewelers screwdriver available, will then permit a lengthwise scraping of the wire inside.


The access slot will now accept flux insertion along with a full solder fill in of the slot and a final dressing down of any overflow with a mill file, to restore the proper rounded profile of the pin.



That filament wire WAS typically only having a tinning on the very end tip near its companion filament base pin, thus the failure with only a small surface area of tin/lead making connection versus the better conductor of the copper wire or the brass /tin plated brass of the tube connector pin. Hot and cold cycles along with high current in a small connective area brought on your condition.


NOW, As a matter of fact, do you realize that there actually was a tool that was made for the specific repair of that situation.


I happen to still have one of the units, punch stamped as the ADEL Tool Company .


In a referencing of the illustrations below, take [A] which is a top view of the rectangular block of brass and the insertion of a stainless steel "shear" the length( +) of the brass blank and the use of a stainless steel fulcrum pin as the blue reference dot is depicting.


The green circle is showing a hole in the end of the blank , the length of a tube pin, making it a snug fit.


To use the unit, one locates one of the filament pins and opens the shear to the [C] depiction and slips the tube pin within the cavity and presses the units together , fully exerting, and HOLDING, a full 'lebenteen billion ergs of pressure. One then swings the shear arm fully downwards.


Since the tube pin is within an enclosed cavity the forming of the pin must remain constant, so the other only possible action is for the corner (shown as the black arrow in the blow up) of the shear to penetrate into the thin wall of the brass tubing and fully pierce it, now, with the pivoting action of the shear upon the fulcrum, a slot is cut into the length of the brass pin up to the point of the corner then swinging back inwards at the end travel of the lever. Look at the [C] drawing and the [orange] tube pin materiel shows the displacement of that slice of metal the length of the tube pin and then its slowly stopping the cuting arc at the top, where it shows the full strip being retained within the tube cavity.


The tool is then slipped from the tube and the nice uniform slot is shown with its shiny edges showing, then being ready for flux and rosin cored solder to be flowed down into the heated tube pins length. Trim off the solder flash overextendings and all is done.


I certainly done my share of 5Y3's- 5U4's- 6146's- 2E24's- 2E26's on olden times.


Now-a -days one might as well take a well worn down # 409 cut off wheel in a Dremel tool, where the now effective diameter was down to ~1/4 inch or so, and then use it to permit up close access for cutting a slot into the tube pins outer side.





73's de Edd







Octal Tube Pin Crimper. . . . .










10/12/2009 9:39:13 PMBill G.
:
:
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:
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:
:
:
:
: . . . . .Sir Bill:
:
:
:
:
:
:And here I was imagining a pulling off of the base and the diamond scribing around the periphery of the bottom of the glass envelope and a surgical crack of that envelope.
:
:
:And then, the inspection of the filamental superstructure and pulling out of the "Svedish micro tweezers" and stereo microscope for a closer inspection of the filament proper to see if a rework on a spot weld was necessary.
:
:
:Since the heavy "band" construction of those filaments is used, it almost precludes the development of a hot spot and erosion across the filament to end up with an open circuit.
:
:
:BUT ! ! ! you would have found the problem at the onset, with your having to pull the socket and the detection of that distinctive darker grey to black appearance of that grainy solder remnant still left between the filament wire and the base pin.
:
:
:That problem was readily apparent back in the hey- days of the use of the 5Y3' s and, its even hotter running, 5U4 big brother.
:
:
:
:
:The usual situation for the first timer with a bright enough "bulb" to be able to realize what was actually happening, was to try to force solder within the tip of the two filamant pins. BUT if you have ever torn down a tube to see the wire leads coming from from
:the envelope glass frit seal areas, we know how well that oxidized wire conditon is to even accepting any further solder at all. Even when being activated with a flux, with the exception of a VERY aggressive cleaning flux, akin to nitric or hydrochloric acids.
:
:
:HOWEVER his next step on the learning curve was the finding that the use of a small mill or triangular file would permit the filing
:away of the two filament pins on their outer exposed periphery, such that a slot is formed with a view of the internal wire then exposed.
:
:
:
:That slot then lets one scrape the wire down inside, where its full length is exposed, with the micro tip of the finest gauge of jewelers screwdriver available, will then permit a lengthwise scraping of the wire inside.
:
:
:The access slot will now accept flux insertion along with a full solder fill in of the slot and a final dressing down of any overflow with a mill file, to restore the proper rounded profile of the pin.
:
:
:
:
:
:That filament wire WAS typically only having a tinning on the very end tip near its companion filament base pin, thus the failure with only a small surface area of tin/lead making connection versus the better conductor of the copper wire or the brass /tin plated brass of the tube connector pin. Hot and cold cycles along with high current in a small connective area brought on your condition.
:
:
:
:
:NOW, As a matter of fact, do you realize that there actually was a tool that was made for the specific repair of that situation.
:
:
:I happen to still have one of the units, punch stamped as the ADEL Tool Company .
:
:
:In a referencing of the illustrations below, take [A] which is a top view of the rectangular block of brass and the insertion of a stainless steel "shear" the length( +) of the brass blank and the use of a stainless steel fulcrum pin as the blue reference dot is depicting.
:
:
:The green circle is showing a hole in the end of the blank , the length of a tube pin, making it a snug fit.
:
:
:To use the unit, one locates one of the filament pins and opens the shear to the [C] depiction and slips the tube pin within the cavity and presses the units together , fully exerting, and HOLDING, a full 'lebenteen billion ergs of pressure. One then swings the shear arm fully downwards.
:
:
:Since the tube pin is within an enclosed cavity the forming of the pin must remain constant, so the other only possible action is for the corner (shown as the black arrow in the blow up) of the shear to penetrate into the thin wall of the brass tubing and fully pierce it, now, with the pivoting action of the shear upon the fulcrum, a slot is cut into the length of the brass pin up to the point of the corner then swinging back inwards at the end travel of the lever. Look at the [C] drawing and the [orange] tube pin materiel shows the displacement of that slice of metal the length of the tube pin and then its slowly stopping the cuting arc at the top, where it shows the full strip being retained within the tube cavity.
:
:
:The tool is then slipped from the tube and the nice uniform slot is shown with its shiny edges showing, then being ready for flux and rosin cored solder to be flowed down into the heated tube pins length. Trim off the solder flash overextendings and all is done.
:
:
:I certainly done my share of 5Y3's- 5U4's- 6146's- 2E24's- 2E26's on olden times.
:
:
:Now-a -days one might as well take a well worn down # 409 cut off wheel in a Dremel tool, where the now effective diameter was down to ~1/4 inch or so, and then use it to permit up close access for cutting a slot into the tube pins outer side.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:73's de Edd

:
:


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:
:

:Octal Tube Pin Crimper. . . . .
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:

:
:
:
:
Hi Edd,
Thank you for the description of the shear and the problem.
I have been restoring radios for a while. How could I not know this? Was I sleeping under a cabbage?
Perahps too many mid-50's FM radios. I take it Selenium rectifiers are not susceptable.

The reflow seems to have worked well. I used a soldering gun and it can put significant watts into a small area. However, if folks went through all the trouble of the shear, I suspect that the fix may not last.

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm

1/10/2010 3:37:44 PMDr. T.
:
:
:
:
:
:ED:
Saw your posting relative to the pin tool. I have a couple of these I have had for some 30 years that resemble your drawing. However, they were made by the BERNS company and are called the "Berns Pin Crimper". They actually "swage" or crimp the lead wire very tightly to the brass socket pin. This is actually better than a solder joint since solder is really a very poor electrical conductor. I have another size of the pin crimper that is used with RCA male audio plugs that functions in the same manner. And, you are correct about the 5U4's and other high current heater tubes and their socket failures. Back in the days of high volume TV repair I would crimp every 5U4 heater pin I installed . . .it also makes for a better contanct in the socket.
:
:
:
:
:
:
: . . . . .Sir Bill:
:
:
:
:
:
:And here I was imagining a pulling off of the base and the diamond scribing around the periphery of the bottom of the glass envelope and a surgical crack of that envelope.
:
:
:And then, the inspection of the filamental superstructure and pulling out of the "Svedish micro tweezers" and stereo microscope for a closer inspection of the filament proper to see if a rework on a spot weld was necessary.
:
:
:Since the heavy "band" construction of those filaments is used, it almost precludes the development of a hot spot and erosion across the filament to end up with an open circuit.
:
:
:BUT ! ! ! you would have found the problem at the onset, with your having to pull the socket and the detection of that distinctive darker grey to black appearance of that grainy solder remnant still left between the filament wire and the base pin.
:
:
:That problem was readily apparent back in the hey- days of the use of the 5Y3' s and, its even hotter running, 5U4 big brother.
:
:
:
:
:The usual situation for the first timer with a bright enough "bulb" to be able to realize what was actually happening, was to try to force solder within the tip of the two filamant pins. BUT if you have ever torn down a tube to see the wire leads coming from from
:the envelope glass frit seal areas, we know how well that oxidized wire conditon is to even accepting any further solder at all. Even when being activated with a flux, with the exception of a VERY aggressive cleaning flux, akin to nitric or hydrochloric acids.
:
:
:HOWEVER his next step on the learning curve was the finding that the use of a small mill or triangular file would permit the filing
:away of the two filament pins on their outer exposed periphery, such that a slot is formed with a view of the internal wire then exposed.
:
:
:
:That slot then lets one scrape the wire down inside, where its full length is exposed, with the micro tip of the finest gauge of jewelers screwdriver available, will then permit a lengthwise scraping of the wire inside.
:
:
:The access slot will now accept flux insertion along with a full solder fill in of the slot and a final dressing down of any overflow with a mill file, to restore the proper rounded profile of the pin.
:
:
:
:
:
:That filament wire WAS typically only having a tinning on the very end tip near its companion filament base pin, thus the failure with only a small surface area of tin/lead making connection versus the better conductor of the copper wire or the brass /tin plated brass of the tube connector pin. Hot and cold cycles along with high current in a small connective area brought on your condition.
:
:
:
:
:NOW, As a matter of fact, do you realize that there actually was a tool that was made for the specific repair of that situation.
:
:
:I happen to still have one of the units, punch stamped as the ADEL Tool Company .
:
:
:In a referencing of the illustrations below, take [A] which is a top view of the rectangular block of brass and the insertion of a stainless steel "shear" the length( +) of the brass blank and the use of a stainless steel fulcrum pin as the blue reference dot is depicting.
:
:
:The green circle is showing a hole in the end of the blank , the length of a tube pin, making it a snug fit.
:
:
:To use the unit, one locates one of the filament pins and opens the shear to the [C] depiction and slips the tube pin within the cavity and presses the units together , fully exerting, and HOLDING, a full 'lebenteen billion ergs of pressure. One then swings the shear arm fully downwards.
:
:
:Since the tube pin is within an enclosed cavity the forming of the pin must remain constant, so the other only possible action is for the corner (shown as the black arrow in the blow up) of the shear to penetrate into the thin wall of the brass tubing and fully pierce it, now, with the pivoting action of the shear upon the fulcrum, a slot is cut into the length of the brass pin up to the point of the corner then swinging back inwards at the end travel of the lever. Look at the [C] drawing and the [orange] tube pin materiel shows the displacement of that slice of metal the length of the tube pin and then its slowly stopping the cuting arc at the top, where it shows the full strip being retained within the tube cavity.
:
:
:The tool is then slipped from the tube and the nice uniform slot is shown with its shiny edges showing, then being ready for flux and rosin cored solder to be flowed down into the heated tube pins length. Trim off the solder flash overextendings and all is done.
:
:
:I certainly done my share of 5Y3's- 5U4's- 6146's- 2E24's- 2E26's on olden times.
:
:
:Now-a -days one might as well take a well worn down # 409 cut off wheel in a Dremel tool, where the now effective diameter was down to ~1/4 inch or so, and then use it to permit up close access for cutting a slot into the tube pins outer side.
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:73's de Edd

:
:


:
:
:
:
:
:

:Octal Tube Pin Crimper. . . . .
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:

:
:
:
:
10/12/2009 8:59:12 PMFred
It is always a good idea to try to resolder the pins on any 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 pin tube that refuses to light, especially if it's a really old one. It is not at all uncommon to be able to bring them back to life.
10/12/2009 9:42:02 PMBill G.
:It is always a good idea to try to resolder the pins on any 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 pin tube that refuses to light, especially if it's a really old one. It is not at all uncommon to be able to bring them back to life.
:
Hi Fred,
I have a 6K7G with an odd problem. It runs well for 20 minutes then I hear a click. After the click, all distant stations go away. I am going to check that tube for this kind of problem.

Best Regards,

Bill GRimm

1/5/2010 9:08:43 PMBill G.
Hi All,
I posted this back in October. My original fix of the 5Y3G didn't last as expected. Merely reflowing the solder won't do it. That must be why old time repairmen had those merthods of crimping the pin to re-create contact, special tool and all.

I found a better way. I wicked out all the old solder and resoldered with silver solder. The lower resistance of the silver solder seems to make the difference. It has been running since November with no problems. I think this has it.

Best Regards,

Bill Girmm

1/5/2010 10:06:11 PMMarv Nuce
Bill,
Is this some kind of low temp silver solder or did you use a torch??

marv

:Hi All,
: I posted this back in October. My original fix of the 5Y3G didn't last as expected. Merely reflowing the solder won't do it. That must be why old time repairmen had those merthods of crimping the pin to re-create contact, special tool and all.
:
: I found a better way. I wicked out all the old solder and resoldered with silver solder. The lower resistance of the silver solder seems to make the difference. It has been running since November with no problems. I think this has it.
:
:Best Regards,
:
:Bill Girmm
:

1/6/2010 10:46:28 AMAndy Rolfe
:Bill,
:Is this some kind of low temp silver solder or did you use a torch??
:
:marv
:
::Hi All,
:: I posted this back in October. My original fix of the 5Y3G didn't last as expected. Merely reflowing the solder won't do it. That must be why old time repairmen had those merthods of crimping the pin to re-create contact, special tool and all.
::
:: I found a better way. I wicked out all the old solder and resoldered with silver solder. The lower resistance of the silver solder seems to make the difference. It has been running since November with no problems. I think this has it.
::
::Best Regards,
::
::Bill Girmm
::
:
1/6/2010 9:40:57 PMBill G.
:Bill,
:Is this some kind of low temp silver solder or did you use a torch??
:
:marv
:
Hi Marv,
It is a silver alloy solder. This is used in lead free (ROHS) electronics and is quite common now. It does seem to take a hotter iron to get it to flow and keeping the tip clean is a challenge. Those are the down sides of it.
The up side is that it solders high current lines well and your work bench won't turn into a super fund site.

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm



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