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Penncrest AM/FMconsole: silver mica disease confirmed...
9/26/2009 9:19:27 PMmaldar
I drilled out the rivet on the L12 can. Unfortunately, I didn't use a big enough bit to remove the lip of the rivet and the drill bit pushed through and mangled everything pretty bad. Novice error on my part.

There was a lot of carbonation on the mica cap. I tried scraping and cleaning it off. The mica cap split in half. Not sure if it is useable or not.

Also, one of the plastic spacers disintegrated.

The values seem to be (2) 10pf caps on the primary side and (1) 47uf cap on the secondary side.

I will try to rebuild the can and hope for the best.

maldar


9/26/2009 10:10:14 PMWarren
Play things of the past does list a Miller part number for a 10.7 MC clip mount IF transformer. In stock.
9/26/2009 11:12:24 PMmaldar
I am rebuilding the part with some fixed value pf caps. The coil is OK. I managed to save the base with a soldering iron and some epoxy.

One problem: determining what values of cap to use.

My guess is the primary side uses two caps of equal value and the secondary I might be able to determine with a variable cap until I get the right frequency.

I've been to that Play Things store before to buy some iron for amp builds. I don't think that guy has a storefront anymore.

maldar

:Play things of the past does list a Miller part number for a 10.7 MC clip mount IF transformer. In stock.
:

9/27/2009 1:13:33 AMMarv Nuce
It's been a couple yrs since I bought from PTOP, but hope Gary is still around w/wo a store front. Sure was a pleasure doin business with him. His web site still up an runnin?

marv

:I am rebuilding the part with some fixed value pf caps. The coil is OK. I managed to save the base with a soldering iron and some epoxy.
:
:One problem: determining what values of cap to use.
:
:My guess is the primary side uses two caps of equal value and the secondary I might be able to determine with a variable cap until I get the right frequency.
:
:I've been to that Play Things store before to buy some iron for amp builds. I don't think that guy has a storefront anymore.
:
:maldar
:
::Play things of the past does list a Miller part number for a 10.7 MC clip mount IF transformer. In stock.
::
:

9/27/2009 8:46:05 AMBill G.
:It's been a couple yrs since I bought from PTOP, but hope Gary is still around w/wo a store front. Sure was a pleasure doin business with him. His web site still up an runnin?
:
:marv
:
::I am rebuilding the part with some fixed value pf caps. The coil is OK. I managed to save the base with a soldering iron and some epoxy.
::
::One problem: determining what values of cap to use.
::
::My guess is the primary side uses two caps of equal value and the secondary I might be able to determine with a variable cap until I get the right frequency.
::
::I've been to that Play Things store before to buy some iron for amp builds. I don't think that guy has a storefront anymore.
::
::maldar
::
:::Play things of the past does list a Miller part number for a 10.7 MC clip mount IF transformer. In stock.
:::
::
:
He is up and running. I got an email from him last week. I want to buy a chassis he has.

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm

9/27/2009 8:52:24 AMBill G.
:I am rebuilding the part with some fixed value pf caps. The coil is OK. I managed to save the base with a soldering iron and some epoxy.
:
:One problem: determining what values of cap to use.
:
:My guess is the primary side uses two caps of equal value and the secondary I might be able to determine with a variable cap until I get the right frequency.
:
:I've been to that Play Things store before to buy some iron for amp builds. I don't think that guy has a storefront anymore.
:
:maldar
:
::Play things of the past does list a Miller part number for a 10.7 MC clip mount IF transformer. In stock.
::
:
If you want to look for one, look for an FM radio of siminlar vintage. If it has a 12AU6 on the input and a 6AL5 or 19T8 on the output it should be compatible electrically. After that the physical fit is necessary.

On the capacitor values, I recommend 24pF on the pinput and 68 pF on the two output capacitors. I have rebuilt descriminators for Zenith H724s in the past and those are the values they used.

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm

9/27/2009 9:03:58 AMmaldar
You may be able to get a descriminator from a scrap set. I have an Zenith X323 which may have a descriminator that will work.
:If you want to look for one, look for an FM radio of siminlar vintage. If it has a 12AU6 on the input and a 6AL5 or 19T8 on the output it should be compatible electrically. After that the physical fit is necessary.
:
:On the capacitor values, I recommend 24pF on the
pinput and 68 pF on the two output capacitors. I have rebuilt descriminators for Zenith H724s in the past and those are the values they used.
:
:Best Regards,
:
:Bill Grimm
:
9/27/2009 4:38:52 PMmaldar
I rebuilt the can. It worked. I didn't have any 24pf caps, so I used 2 33pf caps in series for about 16pf.

Now I need to go over the schematic and look at the resistors which might have drifted. The alignment is off and I don't have any data on how to align this set.

maldar


9/27/2009 4:49:40 PMWhammo!
:I rebuilt the can. It worked. I didn't have any 24pf caps, so I used 2 33pf caps in series for about 16pf.
:
:Now I need to go over the schematic and look at the resistors which might have drifted. The alignment is off and I don't have any data on how to align this set.
:
:maldar
:
:
:
9/27/2009 5:03:46 PMmaldar
:I thought 455K was the standard for AM?

It was a 10.7MC FM discriminator can that was defective.

maldar

9/27/2009 6:16:01 PMBill G.
:I rebuilt the can. It worked. I didn't have any 24pf caps, so I used 2 33pf caps in series for about 16pf.
:
:Now I need to go over the schematic and look at the resistors which might have drifted. The alignment is off and I don't have any data on how to align this set.
:
:maldar
:
:
:
9/27/2009 11:31:12 PMmaldar

:The alignment will be like a Zenith H723. That information is available on this site. You will need to substitute the the proper pin numbers of the 6AL5 for the 19T8 in that alignment. Otherwise it should be the same.
:
:Since you put in 16pF instead of 24pF the alignment may top or bottom out. The value 24pF is a little non-standard.
:
:Best Regards,
:
:Bill Grimm
:


Hi,

I tried goofing around with the set tonight just tuning by ear. I only have the scope and an AF generator, so I can't do a good alignment yet.

At least I got rid of the noise from the discriminator can.

maldar

9/28/2009 9:35:47 AMEdd



Sir Muldar . . . .



Never have run into that problem on that type of transformer at 10.7, usualy just the 455 units which are in series with the 10.7 in the circitry and dependence upon their great frequency disparity for the isolation of the units.
I have your other info additionally archived out at "The Mule Barn . . .in "Podunk Holler" but only grabbed the somewhat massive schematic info.


I would advise that initially. . .if not too late already . . .that you should assume that the rest of the IF strip is in alignment and
has never been touched. Then you tune into the strong signal of a FM station and place the scope probe to the insulation of the plate wiring from the limiter to the discriminator primary. (If a bare wire , a fold of vinyl tape upon it and scope probe clip on to the tape). WHY ? ? ? . . .I don't even like to see the potential detuning /loading effect of even a 10x probe on that circuitry. Use a
cranking up of the scopes vertical amps gain to make up for it.


THEN you just hope that your selected capacitive value for that L 12 and the primary is such that it is a wee bit more capacitance than was originally used. You will be wanting to initially have checked the scopes display to see that you have in order of 2/3 rds of the screen filled vertically. And with a strong signal the stage should be into full limiting and flat topping out of the IF signal.
What you need to do then is find a much weaker signal that is not flat topping , but that you can see its amplitude TRYING to go up and reach that saturated condition. Then you would want to make an initial assessment of that selected value of tuning cap present as the plate windings tuning component.


Hopefully on the insertion of a plastic / Delrin / nylon HEX diddling tool into the BOTTOM . . .A9 coil adjustment, you will find that a CCW movement of that slug will have resulted in an enhancement of the displayed amplitude of the 10.7 IF signal.
You just want to be sure that the eventual capacitive value ends up at resonance with the slug being slightly outwardly from center position within its coil. and I did say outwardly, as having it passing from center coil position and moving on INWARDS towards the outer discriminator secondary coil really fouls up alignment procedure and attainable results.


Another evaluation of needed capacitance value, as you might have mentioned, would be the initial shunting of that coil with a variable trimmer and use the same procedure , but never touching the coils original slug and trimming for resonance and then measuring the required value of cap needed.


If you find a cap that is a bit MORE than the desired value, I have corrected modern vintage El menco, Arco type of silver mica units by using a Dremel tool and a cut off wheel to the very tops and very bottoms to reduce the sizing a bit to result in diminishing the capacitance . When confirmed, a drop of lacquer, fingernail polish or epoxy reseals the unit.




Confirmation of secondary alignment using an off the air signal:


THEN you are ready to deal with a double edged sword in the aspect of the need of two like capacitor values.
To check that possibility you can check alignment by monitoring 6AL5 plate #5, hopefully with analog VTVM metering in its DC mode.


If you will then look down from that connection to [ A ] referencing, you can see that there is an isolative filter connection that is sending
correction voltage for the AFC circuit, that needs to be disabled by the grounding of terminal 1 of PC5. Tha then leavew you free to tune into a station without countractive AFC correction attempting to be made.


You then tune onto a station and note that if you are "RIGHT ON" in its tuning that the voltage output will be near 0 VDC.
Now here is the procedure you use to evaluate that secondary coils tuning, as you tune . .say to the left . . .the voltage should increase in a negative . .or. . .positive polarity value and then at some point come to a peak value and then start diminishiong
value with further tuning until it approaches the tuners capture range and pops off the station.


If you will then reverse tuning, to get the station contact re established, and approach that central tuning point where the DC voltage again should be near zero, with further tuning that voltage should be taking on the same effect as was being experienced before BUT with the polarity of the voltage being the opposite.


On using the main tuning condenser knob in tuning off from that station in both directions and if that secondary coils slug is properly positioned, the peak voltage read on both trials off of center tuning should have peaked at the same value.


Hypothetically on voltage value readings . . .if one tunes off to the right from 0 VDC and finds that the peak voltage reading is
+5 VDC, then in tuning back to 0 position and then tue to the left, its voltage should also peak at -5 VDC.
A finding of +4 VDC on a test along with a companion -6VDC reaing would signify an out of alignment placement of L 12 / top coil [A16 adjustment] slug. Likewise, you could have found a-4VDC or +6VDC or even a - 2 / + 8 VDC which would be a grossly mis alignmed placment of A16 coil slugs position.


You want them to be coincidental in values




Standing by . . . . . Reference schematic re tagged onto this post





73's de Edd










Unitized Penncrest Schematic:







10/1/2009 8:05:06 PMmaldar
Oh no. I turned the hex screws in the other FM cans too. SO I guess the alignment is messed up a bit.

I really need to get a decent FM/AM signal generator and frequency counter. All I have is the 30Mh dual channel analog scope and a few old DMM's.

I'll try to look at it a bit more this weekend.

maldar

10/2/2009 8:49:59 AMEdd




Sir Muldar . . . .



E e e e wwwwww . . . 'dat 'hoits !


The only way I can see as a "freebie" way of getting you out of your situation now, would be if your are located within "air" reception range of an FM station transmittting on 96.3 Mhz . . . .like L.A. . . . Chicago . . .Noo Yawk Citee . .Washington Dee Cee . . .Hutchinson Mn.. or (Podunk Holler ?)


In which situation, you monitor for max developed negative voltage on the 1st grid of the FM limiter stage, after initially grounded out the AFC feed back, correction loop feeding back to the FM tuner ( all being mentioned previously).


You them peak the tuner right on! . . . that received station . .using max negative voltage referencing, then no more touchee-touchee to that dial setting.


Then you walk from frontal I.F. coil to coil adjustment for max. It will be a bit broad, since you are relying to a 9th harmonic frequency referencing , but is capable of being resolved out.


That initial monitoring reference point would then leave you shy of being able to read out the primary of L12 transformer tuning for its optimization. You then go to pin 5 of the Sally5 and monitor there, while tuning L12 primary . . .OR you could scope monitor, in AC coupling mode, at the plate of the V10A 6EA8 MUX amp stage, for max display amplitude , considering a steee-row broadcasts MUX reference carier is present . . MOST likely . .99 86/100ths probability !

The other possibility is the use of another TUBE type FM receiver, and place the two chassis side by side and use insulated hook up wire to wrap around the plate wiring of the limiter and then additionally gimmick couple (via wrap around) of the other end of the wire to the 1st grid wiring of the 1st FM I.F. amp stage of the Penncrest.


Thereby, you are then using the high level 10.7 signal of an aligned receiver peak tuned onto any FM staton, to be amplified by your Penncrest, with it being tuned off station.


You then peak your Penncrest FM I.F's using that signal.




Standing by for feedback . . . .

73's de Edd






10/3/2009 5:47:33 PMmaldar
Edd,

Pin 5 of the 6AL5 is the cathode that goes to test point A. You mentioned something about the plate. Did you mean cathode?

I've got a little time to play around with the set tonight.

maldar

10/3/2009 7:36:41 PMBill G.
:Edd,
:
:Pin 5 of the 6AL5 is the cathode that goes to test point A. You mentioned something about the plate. Did you mean cathode?
:
:I've got a little time to play around with the set tonight.
:
:maldar
:
Hi Maldar,
Pin 7 of the 6AL5 is a plate and the Discriminator primary should be tuned to get peak signal there. The nulling process that Edd described should be done with the volt meter connected to pin 5, which is a cathode.

Best regards,

Bill Grimm

10/3/2009 8:25:01 PMmaldar
::Edd,
::
::Pin 5 of the 6AL5 is the cathode that goes to test point A. You mentioned something about the plate. Did you mean cathode?
::
::I've got a little time to play around with the set tonight.
::
::maldar


::
:Hi Maldar,
: Pin 7 of the 6AL5 is a plate and the Discriminator primary should be tuned to get peak signal there. The nulling process that Edd described should be done with the volt meter connected to pin 5, which is a cathode.
:
:Best regards,
:
:Bill Grimm
:

10/4/2009 9:07:36 PMBill G.
:::Edd,
:::
:::Pin 5 of the 6AL5 is the cathode that goes to test point A. You mentioned something about the plate. Did you mean cathode?
:::
:::I've got a little time to play around with the set tonight.
:::
:::maldar
:
:
:::
::Hi Maldar,
:: Pin 7 of the 6AL5 is a plate and the Discriminator primary should be tuned to get peak signal there. The nulling process that Edd described should be done with the volt meter connected to pin 5, which is a cathode.
::
::Best regards,
::
::Bill Grimm
::
:
:Hi Bill G.,
:
:I took the can off the discriminator coil and set the slugs near the center just apart from each other but not touching. I got another radio and set it to a strong local station, 97.5FM. My tube set had a weak signal to that station, so I turned the bottom lug out a few turn and watched my scope until the amplitude of the signal and sound came out strong. The alignment on the dial seem pretty close.
:
:I tried grounding pin one of the PC5 but no sound came out of the speaker after that, so I stopped at that point.
:
:maldar
:
Hi Maldar,
You lost me at grounding pin 1 of the PC5. PC5?

I didn't think grounding anything was part of it. Did I miss something?

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm

10/5/2009 8:03:48 PMmaldar

:Hi Maldar,
: You lost me at grounding pin 1 of the PC5. PC5?
:
: I didn't think grounding anything was part of it. Did I miss something?
:
:Best Regards,
:
:Bill Grimm
:
10/6/2009 8:29:59 PMBill G.
:
::Hi Maldar,
:: You lost me at grounding pin 1 of the PC5. PC5?
::
:: I didn't think grounding anything was part of it. Did I miss something?
::
::Best Regards,
::
::Bill Grimm
::
:
:To disable the AFC, ground pin 1 of PC5. Tried it, could hear anything from the speaker after I tried that.
:
:maldar
:
Hi Maldar,
Grounding pin 1 of PC5 will definitely cut off all the audio.
If you want to kill afc without killing the audio you may want to try grounding the opposite side of R15 instead.

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm



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