Incandescent Lamp Ban

1/4/2008 3:14:36 PMDoug Criner

You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.

Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
Doug

I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.

Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes

1/4/2008 3:22:17 PMPeter G. Balazsy

I just saw a TV news Dr.Gupta report that the CFLs are causing medical problems. People that suffer from light or strobe sensitive migraine headaches can't use these bulbs. Also people who have epilepsy have been reporting seizures aggravated by these lamps.

1/4/2008 3:55:07 PMLewis L

:I just saw a TV news Dr.Gupta report that the CFLs are causing medical problems. People that suffer from light or strobe sensitive migraine headaches can't use these bulbs. Also people who have epilepsy have been reporting seizures aggravated by these lamps.

All: I hadn't thought about triacs,but my wife cannot use flourescent lights of any kind, she has some sort of eye condition that will give her a headache from hell if she tries to work under flourescent lighting.
Lewis

1/4/2008 5:01:22 PMDoug Criner

I hadn't heard about the vision problems caused by CFLs, etc. Another issue, probably a red herring, is that fluorescents contain mercury, are are hazardous to dispose of.

Fluorescents with magnetic ballasts will flicker at 120Hz. (Older fixtures and most modern, cheapo fixtures from Home Depot, etc., have magnetic ballasts.)

Electronic ballasts, which CFLs have, run at much higher frequency. So, I would think that electronic ballasts would present less of a flicker problem?

Today, although marijuana is illegal, some states (California) allow it for medicinal purposes, right? So maybe with a doctor's orders, you will be allowed to purchase an incandescent lamp? Of course, when it burns out, you would have to return the dud to get the prescription refilled.
Doug

By the way, back on the flicker issue. White LEDs, which are often touted as a higher efficiency replacement for fluorescents, also flicker unless they are supplied with DC.

It's easy to understand why God created humans with a finite lifetime. After a while, we grow weary of all this crap.
Doug

::I just saw a TV news Dr.Gupta report that the CFLs are causing medical problems. People that suffer from light or strobe sensitive migraine headaches can't use these bulbs. Also people who have epilepsy have been reporting seizures aggravated by these lamps.
:
:All: I hadn't thought about triacs,but my wife cannot use flourescent lights of any kind, she has some sort of eye condition that will give her a headache from hell if she tries to work under flourescent lighting.
:Lewis

1/4/2008 5:14:10 PMThomas Dermody

Rediculous. Perhaps we should focus more on solar and wind energy???? If we'd just do that, we could use whatever we wanted.

I really don't like fluorescent lights. They were the light of the future in 1934, and I think that they always will be because they really aren't that good right now. Furthermore, if you don't want things to fade, you have to use incandescent lights. The UV from fluorescents fades things terribly.

I'm going to stock up on light bulbs. I know of a good source for 150 watt 10,000 hour traffic light bulbs. They last for a long time, though they're a bit more yellow than ordinary bulbs.

T.

1/4/2008 7:16:13 PMDoug Criner

Thomas, you better also stock up on a dozen or so pounds of 60-40 resin-core solder. Supposedly, problems have been identified with the lead-free solder now mandated in Europe. The joints grow microscopic whiskers that cause shorts, etc.
Doug

:Ridiculous. Perhaps we should focus more on solar and wind energy???? If we'd just do that, we could use whatever we wanted.
:
:I really don't like fluorescent lights. They were the light of the future in 1934, and I think that they always will be because they really aren't that good right now. Furthermore, if you don't want things to fade, you have to use incandescent lights. The UV from fluorescents fades things terribly.
:
:I'm going to stock up on light bulbs. I know of a good source for 150 watt 10,000 hour traffic light bulbs. They last for a long time, though they're a bit more yellow than ordinary bulbs.
:
:T.

1/4/2008 7:27:41 PMLewis L

A buddy and I were talking just today about the things we have had to be inconvienced with in the past. How many thing can you add to the list?
The hole in the ozone layer. (oooooh...freon)
Acid rain
Alar on apples
Phosphates in detergents

Everytime I see one of these Chicken Little's "The sky is falling" crises, I see in my mind Robert Preston singing "Ya Got Trouble" from "The Music Man", trying to convince the townsfolks that the only way the children of the town can be saved from the dreaded Pool Table is to buy band instruments and uniforms from him.

And on it goes.
Lewis

:Thomas, you better also stock up on a dozen or so pounds of 60-40 resin-core solder. Supposedly, problems have been identified with the lead-free solder now mandated in Europe. The joints grow microscopic whiskers that cause shorts, etc.
:Doug
:
::Ridiculous. Perhaps we should focus more on solar and wind energy???? If we'd just do that, we could use whatever we wanted.
::
::I really don't like fluorescent lights. They were the light of the future in 1934, and I think that they always will be because they really aren't that good right now. Furthermore, if you don't want things to fade, you have to use incandescent lights. The UV from fluorescents fades things terribly.
::
::I'm going to stock up on light bulbs. I know of a good source for 150 watt 10,000 hour traffic light bulbs. They last for a long time, though they're a bit more yellow than ordinary bulbs.
::
::T.

1/4/2008 10:17:44 PMMarv Nuce

All,
I have eye strain/vision problems with the std 60/120 Hz ballast types, but have the electronic type CFLs thru-out my house with little problem. I prefer to read under a std incandescent, but have no side effects from using the CFL's. Just talked to a neighbor who's wife is in lighting sales, and has converted to mostly LEDs at a huge power ($$) savings. Don't think the LEDs have the mercury problem, but maybe precious metals or other hazzardous waste byproducts. I forsee small transformerless switching regulators at each lamp position, and probably integrated into a std screw lamp base along with several LEDs. The beauty of LEDs, as opposed to CFLs would be the simple DC interface to solar panels/batts, and absolutely no flicker. On the other hand running the LEDs with a square wave at 1kHz or so might even off greater power savings.

marv

:Rediculous. Perhaps we should focus more on solar and wind energy???? If we'd just do that, we could use whatever we wanted.
:
:I really don't like fluorescent lights. They were the light of the future in 1934, and I think that they always will be because they really aren't that good right now. Furthermore, if you don't want things to fade, you have to use incandescent lights. The UV from fluorescents fades things terribly.
:
:I'm going to stock up on light bulbs. I know of a good source for 150 watt 10,000 hour traffic light bulbs. They last for a long time, though they're a bit more yellow than ordinary bulbs.
:
:T.

1/4/2008 11:12:05 PMThomas Dermody

I do like LEDs. In 2001 Chrysler Sebring convertibles pale orange and turquois-blue LEDs are used side-by-side in the map lights to create an almost perfect incandescent lamp effect. They have a sort of 3-D effect since they create colored shadows.

Honestly, though, I have 100 watt incandescent bulbs in almost every fixture in my appartment, and my electric bill is rarely over $40, except in the summer, when I run the 3 air conditioners (highest bill I've had was $70, and I live on the 3rd floor, too). My electric company tells me I have an unusually low electric bill, and that I shouldn't think about special plans to save money. Still I'd like to save money. The split price plan wouldn't work for me, though.

I guess it just pays to be sensible and not leave on lights in rooms not in use, and to adjust dimmers appropriately when full light isn't needed. Of course my heat isn't on the bill since it's included in the rent, and the washer and dryer are $1 per load--not on the bill, either. My parents have much larger electric bills, with a washer and dryer (used to be electric), furnace fan, and a pool pump, and my mom has plant lights that run all day long (fluorescents at 40 watts per tube). I think that the pool pump and the plant lights are their biggest problem. I doubt that my bills would be too much higher with a furnace fan and a clothes washer/dryer.

I'm happily burning my C-7 Christmas lights right now. They have a wonderful mellow glow. My bill this month might be around $45 or $50, but it's worth it for Christmas. I never leave the lights on over-night, and I don't usually light the tree for more than a few hours at a time (kind of dangerous).

.....In the end I'd settle for LED light bulbs. They're quite nice.....as long as I could get them with a glow identical (perhaps a bit whiter) to an incandescent bulb.... ....And I still want the choice of being able to purchase incandescent bulbs. There are certain places where nothing else will do.

T.

1/8/2008 2:05:02 AMDave Froehlich

Peter,
You are right. I get migraines. But lately the CFLs are dc or something because I don't see these flicker until they're old. If they're the kind that doesn't flicker, it doesn't set off my migraines. But there are some that will. I agree. Certain flickers on TV and CRT computer screens have set off my migraines too. Flat Screen LCD displays have never caused one.
CFLs contain mercury vapor. So if they break, they can be toxic.

Dave
:I just saw a TV news Dr.Gupta report that the CFLs are causing medical problems. People that suffer from light or strobe sensitive migraine headaches can't use these bulbs. Also people who have epilepsy have been reporting seizures aggravated by these lamps.

1/8/2008 8:53:40 AMThomas Dermody

Where do your migranes occur? I used to get huge headaches all the time, too. They could be stimulated by all sorts of things like changes in temperature, fluorescent lights, incorrect sleep, and other things. Recently I've been seeing a chiropractor about my left shoulder (it's a mess), and he also adjusted my neck. He says that a lot of people who get massive headaches actually have neck problems. My headaches are gone now.

T.

1/5/2008 4:14:00 AMStephen

Can you send me the URL on this ban. I was not aware of any incandesent lamp ban in the USA. I know in some european countries and Australia they plan to ban them in the future. While I support the effort to reduce global warming and in many cases we should switch to CFLs for most homes and business use, I think there needs to be exceptions such as indicators, theatrical, vaccum tube heaters, specialized equipment, etc.

:You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.
:
:Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
:Doug
:
:I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.
:
:Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes

1/5/2008 10:55:41 AMDoug Criner

Stephen, Google "Incandescent bulb ban"
Doug

:Can you send me the URL on this ban. I was not aware of any incandesent lamp ban in the USA. I know in some european countries and Australia they plan to ban them in the future. While I support the effort to reduce global warming and in many cases we should switch to CFLs for most homes and business use, I think there needs to be exceptions such as indicators, theatrical, vaccum tube heaters, specialized equipment, etc.
:

1/5/2008 11:39:22 AMdisappearing lightbulb

it looks like this is more or less a ban in other countries. not the usa. yet.

http://www.voltimum.co.uk/cm.jsp?cat=2&subcat=&action=view&viewmode=details&brand=&universe=infopro.profnews.voltimum&cmid=6898&pagenumber=1

:Can you send me the URL on this ban. I was not aware of any incandesent lamp ban in the USA. I know in some european countries and Australia they plan to ban them in the future. While I support the effort to reduce global warming and in many cases we should switch to CFLs for most homes and business use, I think there needs to be exceptions such as indicators, theatrical, vaccum tube heaters, specialized equipment, etc.
:
:
::You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.
::
::Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
::Doug
::
::I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.
::
::Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes

1/5/2008 12:15:05 PMThomas Dermody

It is happening in the U.S.A. If you don't want it to happen, then you should write your congress person, and start a petition going. A lot of people on comment forums seem to dislike the new CFLs, too. I am not a fan of them at all. Another thing I'd like to know is how much more energy it takes to produce a CFL vs. an incandescent. Incandescents are very simple in construction. In the end, it's all about the carbon trail, regardless of where it comes from.

http://www.digg.com/environment/Congress_Likely_to_Pass_Incandescent_Bulb_Ban

1/5/2008 9:40:32 PMMike

:It is happening in the U.S.A. If you don't want it to happen, then you should write your congress person, and start a petition going. A lot of people on comment forums seem to dislike the new CFLs, too. I am not a fan of them at all. Another thing I'd like to know is how much more energy it takes to produce a CFL vs. an incandescent. Incandescents are very simple in construction. In the end, it's all about the carbon trail, regardless of where it comes from.
:
:http://www.digg.com/environment/Congress_Likely_to_Pass_Incandescent_Bulb_Ban

It was already passed and signed by GWB in late December, 2007. It was part of the big energy bill.

Mike

1/5/2008 10:46:29 PMPaul

:: It is said that CFL's last a lot longer than incandescent light bulb, which is true...but just like old tube radios that have been sitting dormant for decades and suddenly powered-up, incandescent light bulbs act the same way from a "cold" start...they sometimes blow. CFL's take time to "warm-up". Have you ever noticed, in particular with say 120W recessed lighting, that they blow more frequently in the winter? I have a theory about this...it is because the air is much colder above the dry wall ceiling in the winter. You can tell simply by touching the recessed lamp, or better yet, unscrew it and stick your hand up near the socket (disclaimer...please turn off the power first...LOL). To test this theory, I installed dimmers on those circuits which I routinely turn down before shutting off the lights. When I turn them on again, there is a much abated surge, which has had the effect of GREATLY extending the life of these blubs. Personally I don't like CFL's, except for in the basement where they not only seem brighter (great for model railroading and radio benchwork), they are in a colder environment.

Paul

::It is happening in the U.S.A. If you don't want it to happen, then you should write your congress person, and start a petition going. A lot of people on comment forums seem to dislike the new CFLs, too. I am not a fan of them at all. Another thing I'd like to know is how much more energy it takes to produce a CFL vs. an incandescent. Incandescents are very simple in construction. In the end, it's all about the carbon trail, regardless of where it comes from.
::
::http://www.digg.com/environment/Congress_Likely_to_Pass_Incandescent_Bulb_Ban
:
:It was already passed and signed by GWB in late December, 2007. It was part of the big energy bill.
:
:Mike

1/8/2008 8:57:52 PMDr. T

:You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.
:
:Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
:Doug
:
:I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.
:
:Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes

Doug: Saw your posting relative to incandescent lamps and simply could not resist jumping in. I would like to review a few facts:
1. Incandescent lamps are only 5% efficient which produces a great deal of heat and wastes power.
2. We increase our electric power demand 3% annually which means it doubles every 26 years. This simply means that we must generate more power . . .60% of our present power is produced from coal. Do we want more coal plants, nuclear, squirrel cages? If you really feel like a true environmentalist how many of you actually have solar hot water, trombe walls, or a wind generator?
3. CFL, HID, and other forms of gas discharge lamps are tremendously more efficient than the old incandescent lamp which also saves energy in that my air conditioner does not have to pump out their heat. Don't neglect the new LED light fixtures that are showing up in new homes.
Now for the brain teaser. Which produces more light: two 50 watt incandescents or one 100 watt incandescent?
Assume 120 volt lamps. Have a nice day guys.

1/8/2008 9:49:57 PMMarv Nuce

Dr.T,
The CFL's and HID's are inherently more expensive to mfr vs the old incandescent bulb, (is there a cost/energy breakdown inherent to mfg), cost 3-4 times more at the grocery store, are hazzardous to dispose (read another EPA like disposal bureaucracy) Can you also quote figures cradle to grave for the lifespan of this new modern marvel (read Edsel). I use them throughout my home, but for every penny I save, the utility bill goes up a nickel. We have a 250 year supply of coal at todays consumption rate, but guess we'll save it until the natural gas is depleted, then go back to coal for all our energy needs.

marv

:
:
::You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.
::
::Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
::Doug
::
::I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.
::
::Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes
:
:Doug: Saw your posting relative to incandescent lamps and simply could not resist jumping in. I would like to review a few facts:
:1. Incandescent lamps are only 5% efficient which produces a great deal of heat and wastes power.
:2. We increase our electric power demand 3% annually which means it doubles every 26 years. This simply means that we must generate more power . . .60% of our present power is produced from coal. Do we want more coal plants, nuclear, squirrel cages? If you really feel like a true environmentalist how many of you actually have solar hot water, trombe walls, or a wind generator?
:3. CFL, HID, and other forms of gas discharge lamps are tremendously more efficient than the old incandescent lamp which also saves energy in that my air conditioner does not have to pump out their heat. Don't neglect the new LED light fixtures that are showing up in new homes.
:Now for the brain teaser. Which produces more light: two 50 watt incandescents or one 100 watt incandescent?
:Assume 120 volt lamps. Have a nice day guys.

1/9/2008 10:16:03 PMDr T.

:Dr.T,
:The CFL's and HID's are inherently more expensive to mfr vs the old incandescent bulb, (is there a cost/energy breakdown inherent to mfg), cost 3-4 times more at the grocery store, are hazzardous to dispose (read another EPA like disposal bureaucracy) Can you also quote figures cradle to grave for the lifespan of this new modern marvel (read Edsel). I use them throughout my home, but for every penny I save, the utility bill goes up a nickel. We have a 250 year supply of coal at todays consumption rate, but guess we'll save it until the natural gas is depleted, then go back to coal for all our energy needs.
:
:marv
:
Marv: Your posting caused me to do some research at the World Bank and the EIA Government website. The Lumen per dollar per hour of bulb life of flourescents and HID lamps was my key question. And the answer seems to be that the gas discharge lamps come out on top with this criteria. High pressure sodium lamps are the champ but their light spectrum is best suited for street lights, parking lots, etc. I was unable to get any reliable figures on true manufacturing costs so I was unable to make that comparison. It seems that residential lighting accounts for only 9% of total KWH use nationally with HVAC and water heating using quite a bit more energy with the potential for much greater savings than lighting. According to the EIA, incandescents have just about become extinct in commercial and industrial applications. Can you imagine a large office or school building with incandescents?

In the incandescent brain teaser I asked which lamps produced the most lumens of light (put out the most light) and time was not a factor since brightness or lumens is not time based. The answer is that the 100 watt lamp emits the most light by far than the two 50 watt lamps combined. This is due to lamp efficacy (not efficiency) and can be clearly seen if you read the carton lamps come packed in. The 100 watt lamp is more incandescent!! Nice to discuss this lamp thing with you. Dr. T
::
::
:::You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.
:::
:::Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
:::Doug
:::
:::I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.
:::
:::Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes
::
::Doug: Saw your posting relative to incandescent lamps and simply could not resist jumping in. I would like to review a few facts:
::1. Incandescent lamps are only 5% efficient which produces a great deal of heat and wastes power.
::2. We increase our electric power demand 3% annually which means it doubles every 26 years. This simply means that we must generate more power . . .60% of our present power is produced from coal. Do we want more coal plants, nuclear, squirrel cages? If you really feel like a true environmentalist how many of you actually have solar hot water, trombe walls, or a wind generator?
::3. CFL, HID, and other forms of gas discharge lamps are tremendously more efficient than the old incandescent lamp which also saves energy in that my air conditioner does not have to pump out their heat. Don't neglect the new LED light fixtures that are showing up in new homes.
::Now for the brain teaser. Which produces more light: two 50 watt incandescents or one 100 watt incandescent?
::Assume 120 volt lamps. Have a nice day guys.

1/9/2008 10:45:31 PMMarv Nuce

Dr.T,
It seems there are no "good answers" to our energy crisis, except as Thomas D. noted, "TURN OFF THE LIGHTS", but few will adhere to that philosophy until the price hits the ceiling and affects their ability to purchase the basics. As an example, walked into a neighbors house (from the garage where we were socializing) last weekend. The house was empty except for 2 dogs, but there were 3 TV's going, a couple stereo's, video games, all the lights (incandescent) were on, but the owner complains about the costs, and rarely uses the AC in the summer because of it. Go figure.

marv

::Dr.T,
::The CFL's and HID's are inherently more expensive to mfr vs the old incandescent bulb, (is there a cost/energy breakdown inherent to mfg), cost 3-4 times more at the grocery store, are hazzardous to dispose (read another EPA like disposal bureaucracy) Can you also quote figures cradle to grave for the lifespan of this new modern marvel (read Edsel). I use them throughout my home, but for every penny I save, the utility bill goes up a nickel. We have a 250 year supply of coal at todays consumption rate, but guess we'll save it until the natural gas is depleted, then go back to coal for all our energy needs.
::
::marv
::
:Marv: Your posting caused me to do some research at the World Bank and the EIA Government website. The Lumen per dollar per hour of bulb life of flourescents and HID lamps was my key question. And the answer seems to be that the gas discharge lamps come out on top with this criteria. High pressure sodium lamps are the champ but their light spectrum is best suited for street lights, parking lots, etc. I was unable to get any reliable figures on true manufacturing costs so I was unable to make that comparison. It seems that residential lighting accounts for only 9% of total KWH use nationally with HVAC and water heating using quite a bit more energy with the potential for much greater savings than lighting. According to the EIA, incandescents have just about become extinct in commercial and industrial applications. Can you imagine a large office or school building with incandescents?
:
: In the incandescent brain teaser I asked which lamps produced the most lumens of light (put out the most light) and time was not a factor since brightness or lumens is not time based. The answer is that the 100 watt lamp emits the most light by far than the two 50 watt lamps combined. This is due to lamp efficacy (not efficiency) and can be clearly seen if you read the carton lamps come packed in. The 100 watt lamp is more incandescent!! Nice to discuss this lamp thing with you. Dr. T
:::
:::
::::You've probably been following the phased-in U.S. sales ban of new incandescent lamps, starting with 100W.
::::
::::Fluorescent lamps, including CFLs, do not work (or do not work well) with triac-controlled fixtures - such as typically found in motion sensors, touch-activated switches, dusk-to-dawn switches, X10 controllers, etc. This seems to be a problem, possibly not considered by Congress?
::::Doug
::::
::::I don't fear it happening in any near future, but what about future bans of incandescent dial lamps or even new vacuum tubes? Old radios can live off the large supply of NOS tubes, but guitar players would have a problem with their tube-type amps.
::::
::::Is it not conceivable that vacuum tubes
:::
:::Doug: Saw your posting relative to incandescent lamps and simply could not resist jumping in. I would like to review a few facts:
:::1. Incandescent lamps are only 5% efficient which produces a great deal of heat and wastes power.
:::2. We increase our electric power demand 3% annually which means it doubles every 26 years. This simply means that we must generate more power . . .60% of our present power is produced from coal. Do we want more coal plants, nuclear, squirrel cages? If you really feel like a true environmentalist how many of you actually have solar hot water, trombe walls, or a wind generator?
:::3. CFL, HID, and other forms of gas discharge lamps are tremendously more efficient than the old incandescent lamp which also saves energy in that my air conditioner does not have to pump out their heat. Don't neglect the new LED light fixtures that are showing up in new homes.
:::Now for the brain teaser. Which produces more light: two 50 watt incandescents or one 100 watt incandescent?
:::Assume 120 volt lamps. Have a nice day guys.

1/9/2008 12:09:37 PMBill G.

Hi Dr. T,
The two 50 watt bulbs. My reasoning: The 100 watt will have to dissipate more heat over the same surface area as each of the 50 watt bulbs, so it will burn out first. The two 50 watt bulbs will still be going after the filament has blown out of the 100 watt bulb.

How did I do?

Best Regards,

Bill Grimm

1/9/2008 12:57:00 PMThomas Dermody

I think he asked what was brighter--the 2 50 watt bulbs or 1 100 watt bulb.

Regarding incandescents, though, as I've said before, I keep my bill low by turning them off unless I need them. I have 100 watt bulbs in almost every fixture in my apartment, and my bill rarely goes over $40. I certainly don't turn on lights on a hot summer day, and at night, as always, I only use what light I need. No problems with the air conditioner. Also, my fuse box will only put out 30 amps to the two lighting circuits, which are also used for the air conditioners (the 3rd 15 amp circuit is for the fridge only, and the 4th is for the bathroom outlet (don't ask)). Because of this I never have to worry about turning on too many lights. If I turn on too many, and the air conditioners are running, I blow a fuse. I kind of scratch my head at all of the people who ripped out the 'obsolete' 60 ampere services so that they could have 100 and 200 ampere services. Now they complain about their bills being too high and global warming and all. You don't need all of that electricity at one time. If you need all of it, either you're running a factory, or you're lazy. Turn things off! Save energy!

Long live the incandescent bulb. Fluorescents aren't anything new, and they rely on phenomenons first discovered by Edison with his incandescent. I'm all about LEDs, though, if they can ever produce the inviting light that an incandescent produces. Certainly noone wants gigantic CFLs in their electroliers, though. That's rediculous! How clumsy and ugly! Conserve energy--turn off lights.

T.

1/9/2008 1:54:58 PMBill G.

Hi Thomas,
You comments are good ones. Nothing is more dated thatn our view of the future. When I was a kid a car came out that could not go faster than 85 mph, Studabaker, I think. It was criticized as being doomed to quick obsolescence since everyone thought the future was going to be 120 mph and 150 mph freeways.
The same fate exists for those who ripped out 60 amp service for 120 amp service.

The two 50 watt bulbs will put out more light since they will be putting out light when the 100 watt has gone dark. As an old guy I am now thinking in terms of longevity!

All the Best,

Bill Grimm

1/9/2008 11:00:09 PMMarv Nuce

Bill,
Yes, it was the '47 Studebaker Champion, and wouldn't do 85 MPH down hill with a tail wind, but with automatic overdrive, mileage was a dream come true. In '50 they stuffed a small V8 in that lightweight body, and created a real Speed Demon. Then in '53 their Chief Designer Robert Lowry created the Starlight Coupe. What a car, wish I still had mine. Sleek, fast, indestructable, and would corner on a dime compared to the mundane Chevs, Fords etc.

marv

:Hi Thomas,
: You comments are good ones. Nothing is more dated thatn our view of the future. When I was a kid a car came out that could not go faster than 85 mph, Studabaker, I think. It was criticized as being doomed to quick obsolescence since everyone thought the future was going to be 120 mph and 150 mph freeways.
: The same fate exists for those who ripped out 60 amp service for 120 amp service.
:
: The two 50 watt bulbs will put out more light since they will be putting out light when the 100 watt has gone dark. As an old guy I am now thinking in terms of longevity!
:
:All the Best,
:
:Bill Grimm

1/10/2008 12:25:31 AMPeter G. Balazsy

Here's an interesting silly question...
Where does light go?
We can easily redirect it with mirrors ...right?

Can we build a closed box with mirrors inside and a lamp....
then when we switch off the lamp... why doesn't the light stay inside the box reflecting itself around in there for a long time or for ever? .. or at all?
If not...long ...how long?
If we put a light sensor in the box... would it detect light for a even a little bit longer time after the lamp is turned off in the mirrored box than in a black box?

1/10/2008 9:10:51 AMBill G.

:Here's an interesting silly question...
:Where does light go?
:We can easily redirect it with mirrors ...right?
:
:Can we build a closed box with mirrors inside and a lamp....
:then when we switch off the lamp... why doesn't the light stay inside the box reflecting itself around in there for a long time or for ever? .. or at all?
:If not...long ...how long?
:If we put a light sensor in the box... would it detect light for a even a little bit longer time after the lamp is turned off in the mirrored box than in a black box?

Hi Peter,
If there is a light sensor in the box, it will let all the light leak out. If the light is in a mirrored box, the light will just bounce around until it gets tired.
I am glad there are no physicists around.

Off to battle the Silver mica disease.

All the Best,

Bill Grimm

1/10/2008 10:41:08 AMThomas Dermody

Studebaker Champions are the best. I got to drive one for a week about 5 years ago. It was great, though the engine needed serious work. I think that some piston rings were broken or something. There was a lot of blow-by, and I would only get about 14 mpg. I liked the automatic overdrive and the hill hold. Though the brakes were one of the first to automatically adjust, sadly they were not servo brakes, and so the car was very difficult to slow down, especially with the free-wheeling overdrive. I almost hit a few cars with that thing. When it was first loaned to me, the paint was tarnished. It looked kind of weird. After I got done polishing it, it looked like a really fun, kind of sporty car. I would definitely own another one if I had the space and money. Regarding the pistons, though, they probably failed because they were aluminum. Everyone criticizes Chevrolet for their cast iron pistons, but they did that because they were more durable and could be fitted to closer tolerances without damage from expansion. The last time I checked my cast iron pistons was at 100,000, and none of them had any wear what-so-ever. They're still pounding away well at 158,000....and the car will do 99 on flat land (certainly not up a hill or into the wind).

Regarding light.....well, light isn't matter, but rather the vibration of matter. When the vibration has enough energy to cause electrons to fall out of orbit, light is given off. The only way to keep the matter producing light would be to keep the vibration going. If you wanted to 'save' light, you'd have to somehow keep other matter from absorbing the vibration.

T.

1/10/2008 12:50:31 PMMarv Nuce

Thomas,
My '53 Studebaker Starlite Coupe did that. Wish I still had it!!!

marv

:Studebaker Champions are the best. I got to drive one for a week about 5 years ago. It was great, though the engine needed serious work. I think that some piston rings were broken or something. There was a lot of blow-by, and I would only get about 14 mpg. I liked the automatic overdrive and the hill hold. Though the brakes were one of the first to automatically adjust, sadly they were not servo brakes, and so the car was very difficult to slow down, especially with the free-wheeling overdrive. I almost hit a few cars with that thing. When it was first loaned to me, the paint was tarnished. It looked kind of weird. After I got done polishing it, it looked like a really fun, kind of sporty car. I would definitely own another one if I had the space and money. Regarding the pistons, though, they probably failed because they were aluminum. Everyone criticizes Chevrolet for their cast iron pistons, but they did that because they were more durable and could be fitted to closer tolerances without damage from expansion. The last time I checked my cast iron pistons was at 100,000, and none of them had any wear what-so-ever. They're still pounding away well at 158,000....and the car will do 99 on flat land (certainly not up a hill or into the wind).
:
:Regarding light.....well, light isn't matter, but rather the vibration of matter. When the vibration has enough energy to cause electrons to fall out of orbit, light is given off. The only way to keep the matter producing light would be to keep the vibration going. If you wanted to 'save' light, you'd have to somehow keep other matter from absorbing the vibration.
:
:T.

1/10/2008 1:18:53 PMLewis L

:I think he asked what was brighter--the 2 50 watt bulbs or 1 100 watt bulb.
:
:Regarding incandescents, though, as I've said before, I keep my bill low by turning them off unless I need them. I have 100 watt bulbs in almost every fixture in my apartment, and my bill rarely goes over $40. I certainly don't turn on lights on a hot summer day, and at night, as always, I only use what light I need. No problems with the air conditioner. Also, my fuse box will only put out 30 amps to the two lighting circuits, which are also used for the air conditioners (the 3rd 15 amp circuit is for the fridge only,

and the 4th is for the bathroom outlet (don't ask)).
*******************************************************
How about its a GFCI type breaker????
Lewis

Because of this I never have to worry about turning on too many lights. If I turn on too many, and the air conditioners are running, I blow a fuse. I kind of scratch my head at all of the people who ripped out the 'obsolete' 60 ampere services so that they could have 100 and 200 ampere services. Now they complain about their bills being too high and global warming and all. You don't need all of that electricity at one time. If you need all of it, either you're running a factory, or you're lazy. Turn things off! Save energy!
:
:Long live the incandescent bulb. Fluorescents aren't anything new, and they rely on phenomenons first discovered by Edison with his incandescent. I'm all about LEDs, though, if they can ever produce the inviting light that an incandescent produces. Certainly noone wants gigantic CFLs in their electroliers, though. That's rediculous! How clumsy and ugly! Conserve energy--turn off lights.
:
:T.

1/10/2008 1:39:28 PMThomas Dermody

Well, the bathroom has a GFCI, but the outlet is also on its own fuse, which is strange. Actually, originally the 4th fuse in my fuse box was unused, and the outlet was on the 2nd lighting circuit (there are 2 total), along with the rest of the bathroom, but I complained about having an outlet in the shower (originally, in 1929, there was no shower), so they relocated it, and gave it its own circuit (supposedly a modern code...a dumb one at that).

T.

1/10/2008 4:31:46 PMLewis L

:Well, the bathroom has a GFCI, but the outlet is also on its own fuse, which is strange. Actually, originally the 4th fuse in my fuse box was unused, and the outlet was on the 2nd lighting circuit (there are 2 total), along with the rest of the bathroom, but I complained about having an outlet in the shower (originally, in 1929, there was no shower), so they relocated it, and gave it its own circuit (supposedly a modern code...a dumb one at that).
:
:T.

Sorry I asked. (;>)
L

1/10/2008 4:54:47 PMDoug Criner

Thomas - yes, the current National Electrical Code doesn't allow bathroom outlets to be on the same ckt as lighting. I'm not sure exactly why. I do know that a hair dryer will cause lights to dim if they are on the same ckt, but that wouldn't seem to be a safety issue?

The NEC doesn't mandate conforming to the latest code unless there are significant renovations. Not sure if moving the outlet would constitute a major renovation, but electricians often just prefer to follow the code. It makes their lives a little simpler, I guess.
Doug

:Well, the bathroom has a GFCI, but the outlet is also on its own fuse, which is strange. Actually, originally the 4th fuse in my fuse box was unused, and the outlet was on the 2nd lighting circuit (there are 2 total), along with the rest of the bathroom, but I complained about having an outlet in the shower (originally, in 1929, there was no shower), so they relocated it, and gave it its own circuit (supposedly a modern code...a dumb one at that).
:
:T.

1/10/2008 5:51:31 PMTonyJ

From what I can tell the reasoning behind is this is exactly what you mentioned - loading. Typically people plug blow dryers, curling irons etc. into the bathroom receptacle and the additional loads of a light fixture, recessed lighting, fans etc. may push that 20A feed close to it's limit. Nowadays it's required that it also be a GFI receptacle. With the nuisance tripping of some GFI devices, having the lighting on the protected leg (while it seems to make sense) results in the room going dark as well.

:Thomas - yes, the current National Electrical Code doesn't allow bathroom outlets to be on the same ckt as lighting. I'm not sure exactly why. I do know that a hair dryer will cause lights to dim if they are on the same ckt, but that wouldn't seem to be a safety issue?
:
:The NEC doesn't mandate conforming to the latest code unless there are significant renovations. Not sure if moving the outlet would constitute a major renovation, but electricians often just prefer to follow the code. It makes their lives a little simpler, I guess.
:Doug
:
::Well, the bathroom has a GFCI, but the outlet is also on its own fuse, which is strange. Actually, originally the 4th fuse in my fuse box was unused, and the outlet was on the 2nd lighting circuit (there are 2 total), along with the rest of the bathroom, but I complained about having an outlet in the shower (originally, in 1929, there was no shower), so they relocated it, and gave it its own circuit (supposedly a modern code...a dumb one at that).
::
::T.

1/11/2008 9:45:34 AMThomas Dermody

I think that it is a rediculous code. At my parents' house the entire upstairs was on the same fuse (15 ampere), and the only time we ever blew a fuse while my mom was using the hair dryer was when I'd have a space heater running in my room (she liked to keep the heat around 65-68, and being on the second floor, I got even less).

....But if you have 50 different electrical devices running at all times, like that trusty computer that noone seems to know how to shut off, I guess you'll need another circuit. I can't believe how many places (especially public schools and universities) that leave their computers running at all times.

T.

1/11/2008 11:19:38 AMLewis L

:I think that it is a rediculous code. At my parents' house the entire upstairs was on the same fuse (15 ampere), and the only time we ever blew a fuse while my mom was using the hair dryer was when I'd have a space heater running in my room (she liked to keep the heat around 65-68, and being on the second floor, I got even less).
:
:....But if you have 50 different electrical devices running at all times, like that trusty computer that noone seems to know how to shut off, I guess you'll need another circuit. I can't believe how many places (especially public schools and universities) that leave their computers running at all times.
:
:T.

All:

I live in a ranch house with a full basement, but the wiring is all in the attic, which is impossible to access, except for a small area. The idiot that wired it put both bathrooms and two bedrooms on the same 15 Am fuse. My wife uses the iron in one bedroom, and the hair dryer in the master bathroom, and being #14 wire, the lights dim in half the house. If I could get up in the attic, I would re-wire the whole house. I rewired as much as I could with 20Amp circuit breakers, replacing the fuse box, and wired the full basement properly. I ran a spare #12 NM cable to the basement while I had the house torn apart, I think I will install a GFCI breaker and run two dedicated 20 Amp outlets for the iron and hair dryer. The lights dimming mean that wire is getting hot somewhere, doesn't it??

1/11/2008 12:37:58 PMTonyJ

I would guess that the particular wiring servicing those two particular outlets would be warm as it is dropping the voltage from about 120VAC at the panel end to something less at the load, much like a big power resistor would. Exactly how warm it gets I wouldn't know, but once in awhile you hear stories about wiring burning up in the walls. Another problem I found at my parent's 60's ranch was some of the outlets getting warm due to the connections loosening up where the romex terminates to the receptacle.

:All:
:
:I live in a ranch house with a full basement, but the wiring is all in the attic, which is impossible to access, except for a small area. The idiot that wired it put both bathrooms and two bedrooms on the same 15 Am fuse. My wife uses the iron in one bedroom, and the hair dryer in the master bathroom, and being #14 wire, the lights dim in half the house. If I could get up in the attic, I would re-wire the whole house. I rewired as much as I could with 20Amp circuit breakers, replacing the fuse box, and wired the full basement properly. I ran a spare #12 NM cable to the basement while I had the house torn apart, I think I will install a GFCI breaker and run two dedicated 20 Amp outlets for the iron and hair dryer. The lights dimming mean that wire is getting hot somewhere, doesn't it??

1/11/2008 2:27:10 PMThomas Dermody

Or..................use either the iron or the hair dryer.....not both. I can't see someone using both at the same time. Doesn't make sense. For one thing it's practically impossible physically. Seeing as this thread was started regarding energy reduction, I think that it would only be sensible to be sensible with the electricity. If people would do so, we wouldn't have to ban incandescent bulbs. 15 ampere wiring is designed to handle 15 amperes. If it's fused properly, there is no danger. The wire can get warm. That's acceptable. If it gets hot, then you're using the wrong fuse or there's a bad connection. The only places 20 ampere fuses are necessary are possibly in the kitchen, and most likely in a shop environment.

Most outlets are designed to handle 15 amperes. If they get hot, then they are old and loose, or the plug is corroded, or there's a bad connection inside of the plug. A 1000 watt toaster such as my 1935 Toastmaster 1B5 (or my 1938 1B8) draws about 8.3 amperes. Most modern toasters draw less (and toast more slowly). A typicall hair dryer of modern design draws 1250 watts on high. That's 10.4 amperes (just fine for a lighting circuit). A typical 1000 watt iron draws the same 8.3 amperes that the 1000 watt toaster draws. As far as power consumption is concerned, one must remember that an iron cycles on and off, so it isn't a continuous 1000 watts. However, as far as circuit loading is concerned, 1000 watts is 1000 watts, regardless of how long it runs.

As I've said before, I have two 15 ampere lighting circuits in my appartment, a fridge circuit (one outlet), a range circuit, and some dumb circuit for the bathroom outlet. I rarely replace fuses (usually one or two in the summer). If I want to run the microwave, I don't run the toaster, and vice versa. If I want to use the iron, I don't use the toaster or the microwave or the hair dryer. If I have the air conditioning on (I run up to 3 air conditioners on the two 15 ampere lighting circuits) and want to use either of the three previously mentioned appliances, I temporarily turn off one or more of the air conditioners. There's no need to run all of those appliances at the same time. I have a LOT of electrical appliances, mostly from the 40s and prior, and I'm proud of all of them. I enjoy using all of them. Still, I don't turn them all on at the same time, and I keep my electric bill low. If I was running a restaurant, that'd be a different story. Certainly I'd want to run the toaster, microwave, Mixmaster, and possibly the blender and waffle iron all at the same time. Who knows....I might even run the Electrolux.

Speaking of efficiency and workshops, my dad owns some 1940s Craftsman motorized tools, like a table saw, a jointer, and some other device. The saw uses a 1 HP repulsion-induction motor. At first glance it looks like a universal type motor, with brushes and windings on the rotor. However, the rotor is only energized by induction. There is a centrifugal array of switches on the commutator that shorts every other contact once the motor is at speed, which converts it to a squirrel cage type set-up. Otherwise the motor starts with two carbon brushes mounted 180 degrees apart, and shorted together by a wire. It's an amazing motor because it only takes 11.6 amperes to run, and it has a lot of torque. It'll saw just about anything (wood) on a regular lighting circuit. It rarely blows a fuse. The motor went bad about 10 years ago, and my dad was considering replacing it. Most of the modern motors available at the same HP rating require a bit more power to operate. While my dad has his shop fitted with 20 ampere circuits in many places, it'd be nice to keep the saw versatile and efficient. After a lot of talk I convinced him to repair the original motor. For someone else to do it would cost around $500 (though modern motors of similar quality are around the same price). I decided to do it myself. The shorts were in the rotor, so I rewound the rotor with new double enamel high temp (300 degree C) wire and all of the other requirements (fish paper, string, varnish, friction tape, etc.). It took a few months (tiring process), but now the motor runs like new. It's amazing. It starts right up and cuts through just about anything. I like to run it on a 15 ampere circuit just to show what it can do. It barely dims the lights. Now why don't they produce such an efficient motor anymore?????? .....Well, because it's more expensive....and people would rather have a cheaper motor that has to run at rediculous rpms. in order to achieve the same results.

T.

1/11/2008 3:27:49 PMLewis L

:Or..................use either the iron or the hair dryer.....not both. I can't see someone using both at the same time. Doesn't make sense. For one thing it's practically impossible physically. Seeing as this thread was started regarding energy reduction, I think that it would only be sensible to be sensible with the electricity. If people would do so, we wouldn't have to ban incandescent bulbs. 15 ampere wiring is designed to handle 15 amperes. If it's fused properly, there is no danger. The wire can get warm. That's acceptable. If it gets hot, then you're using the wrong fuse or there's a bad connection. The only places 20 ampere fuses are necessary are possibly in the kitchen, and most likely in a shop environment.
:

My point was that wiht 14 ga. wire, I am paying to heat the attic abit, when with 20 ga wire I will pay only to heat the hair dryer or the iron (you're right, she's good, but she can't iron clothes in one room and dry hair in another).
Lewis

1/11/2008 6:19:23 PMTonyJ

I think you meant 12 ga. wire? ;)

:My point was that wiht 14 ga. wire, I am paying to heat the attic abit, when with 20 ga wire I will pay only to heat the hair dryer or the iron (you're right, she's good, but she can't iron clothes in one room and dry hair in another).
:Lewis

1/11/2008 6:20:56 PMTonyJ

Women do have a knack for multitasking though - just this morning I was behind one on the way to work who could put on makeup and drive at the same time. Er, she could put on makeup anyway

:My point was that wiht 14 ga. wire, I am paying to heat the attic abit, when with 20 ga wire I will pay only to heat the hair dryer or the iron (you're right, she's good, but she can't iron clothes in one room and dry hair in another).
:Lewis

1/11/2008 7:12:13 PMThomas Dermody

The one I loved best was on a snowy day....a woman was turning left at an intersection, and then stopped mid-way to either change the radio station or do something with her phone. WOW!

Anyway.....................................

1/11/2008 7:10:38 PMThomas Dermody

Ah. True. It shouldn't be getting all that warm, but it does. If you have the money, certainly use 12 gauge....especially for a long run.

T.