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Graphophone!
8/3/2007 11:03:55 PMRick C.
Hello All,
I just picked up my first Graphophone. It is a Columbia version. All I know about them is your crank and play. Well this one cranks and cranks and it does not feel like there is a spring to wind. I only paid $32.00 for it but I would like some advice as to the possibility of repairing the spring action. The case is in good shape with nothing a refinish would not cure.

Thanks for the help!

God Bless You All
Rick

8/4/2007 12:03:46 AMJ.G.J.
Rick,
If it's really all there and the mainspring is indeed not missing - it is likely broken. Once you've replaced a few, it's not too hard - but dealing with the mainspring can be dangerous if you don't have any experience with them. They are coiled under tension into a small container and can fly out and cut you or "put your eye out". Always wear gloves and eye protection when you work with one. You can find out a lot from the book, "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric L. Reiss - I believe it's available at Amazon.com and it is an invaluable repair reference as well as a price guide. George Vollema at Great Lakes Antique Phonograph is a good source for repair service and parts (http://www.victroladoctor.com). Be warned - old record players can be as addictive as radios.....
8/4/2007 1:08:52 AMThomas Dermody
The safest way to remove a spring from its barrel is to grab the center of the spring with your hand (wearing leather gloves), and place the barrel inside of a burlap bag. Give it a hard yank, and it'll come out. A garbage can works well, too. Face the can away from you. Wear goggles, too, and preferrably a thick cloth apron.

What usually happens is that the spring breaks off at the end (either inner or outer), where it hooks onto a pin or rivet. What you can do is cut the old end off if it is broken. Then heat the new end with a torch until its spring temper is ruined (heat it until it's red, and then dip it in water), and it becomes pliable without being brittle. Drill a new hole to the required size (whether it hooks over a hook type pin--such as on the center shaft, or it hooks to a pin with a nail or cotter key that goes through a hole to retain the spring end--usually to the inner edge of the barrel). Then reattach the spring. This can be tedious. If the spring broke in the center, you must ruin the temper of enough spring metal to form a new loop that will slip over the center shaft. Make the loop fit the shaft accurately, and make it a little undersized, so that it snaps on securely, and so that the pin is held into the hole on the end of the spring securely.

The spring will most likely be packed with graphite grease. You can add more if you like. If the old grease is hard and waxy, wash it off with gasoline, and fill the barrel with new graphite grease. Graphite grease, whether most store clerks know it or not (most store clerks don't know much about anything, though occasionally you'll come across a smart one), is the gray kind of grease that's often used in grease guns and sometimes in wheel bearings. You can buy the grease tubes that are certified for Ford type vehicles, because they usually contain graphite grease.

Some spring barrels are of the double kind, and will have two sections, each containing a spring. If either section fails, you won't get the unit to wind up properly, if at all.

When you return the spring to the barrel, first snap the shaft into the center part of the spring. Then hook the outer part of the spring to where it's supposed to be secured to the barrel. Be sure that it's facing the right direction (take note of which way the spring starts and ends before you remove it in the first place....if it's backwards, you won't be able to wind your phonograph, and it won't work properly). With your fingers under the closed end of the barrel, and your thumbs over the open end, use your thumbs to work the spring back into the barrel. DO NOT LET GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep control of the spring and keep working it into the barrel. If, for any reason, you become tired and feel that you cannot work the spring into the barrel any longer, turn the open end of the barrel away from you and allow the spring to shoot away from you so that the spring doesn't hit you.

Once you are finished, reassemble the barrel and try out your phonograph. Once you have repaired your spring, don't leave it wound up. Use the brake only when changing records, or to pause for a few moments (say you leave the room for a while). Don't leave the spring wound up for long periods of time, or else it'll become weaker and weaker. When you are done with your phonograph, and don't think that you will use it anymore that day, let it wind out on its own.

You can clean the turntable gears, and then lubricate them. Check parts for slack and end-play. If a gear shaft has an end-play adjustment screw, adjust the shaft so that it is just loose. This is especially important for the governor. If the shaft is too loose, and the governor disc can move back and forth (other than what is allowable by spring tension of the weighted springs), the machine will have irregular speed control, and may even flutter. 20W oil is acceptable on the shafts and gears. Oil them once a year, unless you use the phonograph quite regularily. If you use it heavily, oil it every few months.

Personally, except for novelty, I'd never use one of those phonographs. Unless you get an orthophonic, they don't really sound that good, and they tear your records to bits. If you use steel needles, replace the needle after every play. If you use 50 play chromium needles, never use them for 50 plays. Use them for 20 plays at the most. You can use gem needles. They will last longer and treat your records better. Saphire needles are especially prone to chipping on a heavy machine like that, though, so be on the lookout for chipped needles. Diamond is ideal, and can sometimes be found on those old set-screw jukebox needles. They will fit well on a Graphophone type head. Some 78 rpm needles made to-day are not cut properly, though, so be on the lookout for diamond or saphire needles that immediately start chewing your records up. A good needle should play shiny records like they are velvet, especially the old hard acoustic ones.

Edison cylinder phonographs, with their diamond needles, are nice to use. They don't seem to chew up the cylinders too rapidly. They do sound somewhat harsh, though, and are more of a novelty experience than an actual listening sensation, as would be listening to a good electrically recorded record on a good electric phonograph.

Thomas

8/4/2007 9:59:53 AMJ.G.J.
Thomas' reply about covers it - but the book I recommend gives you plenty of illustrations - and, in this case, a picture really is worth a thousand words. I strongly advise you to get a copy (some as low as $20 on Amazon)before you tackle this job for the first time.

There is some disagreement as to what grease to repack the spring barrel with - a modern synthetic grease may work better than the graphite in many cases and that graphite grease really makes a mess of anything it gets on. Graphite grease will eventually turn back into the nasty mud that you'll be cleaning out from the original grease. For safety's sake, I'd advise you use less volitile mineral spirits or kerosene rather than gasoline to clean the parts.

As mentioned, springs can be repaired, but a repaired spring is prone to fail again - a new spring will give you much better service and performance.

8/4/2007 10:01:18 AMRick C.
Hello Guys,
Thanks!!!! You are all great and this forum is the best on the web.

Thanks
Rick

8/4/2007 10:12:05 AMJ.G.J.
Rick,

Make sure you read my last post.... And I do advise against yanking the spring out to remove it - you need to remove it carefully and in a controlled manner. Once again, Reiss' book gives great detail and examples...

8/4/2007 11:15:54 PMThomas Dermody
Original manufacturer instruction that I read from Victor indicated that the spring should be yanked out in a container (garbage can) or burlap bag. They specifically said to attach a strong twine or string to the center of the spring, and then yank it out at a distance (say five feet away). If you try to control the spring as it comes out, and it gets loose, it will hurt whatever part of yourself that you are using to remove the spring. Do as I said and you will be just fine. Be sure to observe the direction that the spring winds before you remove it from the barrel.

Graphite grease is also the finest grease to use, and is still used in almost all automobiles to this day because of its excellent long lasting lubrication qualities (almost all CV joints use this grease, as well as suspension parts). Actually, most of the phonograph springs that I have repaired still had grease that was quite soft, and no new grease was necessary. I recommend this grease over all others. Graphite keeps things working even when other parts of the grease solidify (which won't happen until after you're dead).

Also, mineral spirits are just about as volatile as gasoline. Either will work well. Don't use them in your basement next to your water heater or furnace pilot lamp. Use them outside, or in a garage where no spark or flame producing devices are being used. Open windows before operating light switches, if you produce a lot of vapors. You shouldn't produce a lot, though.

Finally, if you can get a new mainspring, then go for it. Re-using the original, if only broken at the ends, is fine, though, and you should be able to get quite a bit more use out of it as long as what it attaches to isn't badly damaged.

8/5/2007 1:55:09 PMJ.G.J.
I must respectfully, but fervently, disagree with Mr. Dermody concerning gasoline vs mineral spirits as a degreasing / cleaning agent. Gasoline is much more volatile than mineral spirits and significantly more dangerous. The vapor pressure of gasoline (a measure of evaporation) is up to 20 times that of mineral spirits. The flash point of gasoline - the minimum temperature at which it gives off a vapor in sufficient quantities to ignite - is -(minus)45F compared to (positive)110F for mineral spirits. If gasoline was all we needed, then there would be no need for making mineral spirits at all.

To the best of our ability it is imperative that the advice that is given on this forum is at least sound - and certainly not dangerous to life and limb of those we pass it on to. Just because "that's the way I've always done it for the past 50 years" neither makes it safe nor necessarily the only or "right" way to do it.

8/4/2007 11:54:59 PMJ.G.J.
Rick,

Of course, you'll find as many robust opinions as you will people on this forum. Opinions are like noses, everybody has one - and most smell. I strongly recommend that you do your homework before beginning work on your phonograph. Whatever course of action you take, I do hope you'll err on the side of safety.

8/7/2007 11:28:13 AMGuy M.
Have to agree with JGJ..... Gasoline belongs in the tank of your car and not in routine use as a solvent in your workshop.


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