marv
:
:marv
7 mils ? You mean 0.7 mils, which is for stereo LPs.
For 78s, 3 mils is best. Don't go under 2.5 mils. You will not find 3 mils diamond on flip over types nor common cartridges. Real 3 mils diamonds are expensive and can be found only for magnetic cartridges.
Here's a website I suggest everyone interested in older records should read: http://www.videointerchange.com/vintage_78s.htm
Tons of interesting info (hours of excellent reading). Saves me from typing long posts....
Z-
Thanks, unfortunately I dozed, but will get back to it's hours tomorrow.
marv
::Tell me about the best stylus for 78's. It now has an Astatic N 56SD flip-over for LP's and 78's. Some replacements say 7 & 3 mil synthentic sapphire and diamond, some just say 7 mil, but I seem to recall your comments of many posts ago about diamond being a no-no on 78's, and recommending the 3 mil only. Am I correct?
::
::marv
:
:7 mils ? You mean 0.7 mils, which is for stereo LPs.
:
:For 78s, 3 mils is best. Don't go under 2.5 mils. You will not find 3 mils diamond on flip over types nor common cartridges. Real 3 mils diamonds are expensive and can be found only for magnetic cartridges.
:
:Here's a website I suggest everyone interested in older records should read: http://www.videointerchange.com/vintage_78s.htm
:
:Tons of interesting info (hours of excellent reading). Saves me from typing long posts....
:
:Z-
It is somewhat difficult to find good needles of any make, though. When dealing with thousandths of an inch, it is unlikely that every needle will be identical. I have had some new needles that sound fabulous and some that have a lot of surface noise, and don't fit the groove properly. I usually use saphire because it is more readily obtainable. My rule is that if I wish to keep my fine records fine, I don't play dirty or worn records. As soon as I start playing the noisy ones, I can be sure that my needle will soon be either dull (garbled treble response at the center of the record) or chipped (surface noise and lots of black powder).
3 mil is ideal. I don't know of any 7 mil needles for audio reproduction, unless you mean .7 mil, which is for LP and 45 records. 3 mil is fine. 2.5 mil is barely acceptable. Those all-speed needles can play fine on some records and can damage others. 3.5 mil, if you can get it, is better for some pre-war records. Those records that are shiny, but have surface noise unless the needle is pushed against one of the walls of the groove have grooves that are too wide for the needle being used. Pre-war records generally have wider grooves, but this can also be due to a poor initial cut (bad cutting needle) or a record that has been stamped too many times. I'm Gettin' Sentimental Over You, Chatnooga Choo Choo, White Christmas (first veresion), and Andre Kostelanetz Musical Comedy Favorites Volume I are examples of where you may obtain records that were stamped way too many times, since they were in high demand. I have yet to obtain a chatter and swish free copy of Chatanooga/I Know Why, though they must be out there (probably in New York), since clean recordings have been made onto CDs. I have some late 30s/early 40s copies of Musical Comedy Favorites that sound superb with a good needle (must be selected for perfect fit), though my mid-1940s copies of this album sound over-stamped. My late 40s copies are actually re-recordings of the records. They sound clean, but due to the re-recording, they lack the same treble response of the earliest stampings. This is also a problem you will find of re-recorded Victor records. If you ever get one of Glenn Miller's albums, you'll notice that none of the recordings in the album sound as crisp as the original late 30s/early 40s Bluebird copies. The album records are re-recordings, and you can sometimes even hear when the original recording is started, as you'll hear the surface noise increase ever so slightly. By the late 1940s they had improved their re-recording process somewhat, as you can find "Re-issued by Request" Miller records that sound just as fresh and clean as the originals. If you find 1950s copies of Moonlight Serenade, they are extremely brilliant sounding, though someone must have either slightly sped up the original recording or slightly slowed down the cutting lathe, as the 1950s copies play at an ever so slightly faster rate than the originals. I also believe that the 1940s album copies play slightly slower than the originals, though I can't remember for sure. Those who have musical ears will notice, and those who don't may not notice the difference at all.
T.
Not: The many who wrote the book
Glad you're back with us. Right, it was .7 mils not 7. All my questions were for naught anyway. Unable to find a Philco BOL changer, made an attempt to adapt a newer FREE Philco (p/n 35-1586-1) maybe 60's-70's version, 4 speed changer for the 42-1008. It has an Astatic 157D cartridge with the N-56SD flip-over stylus. I assume the SD suffix means synthentic diamond, but Syl indicates the the 78 flip side is probably 3 mil and sapphire, because a 3 mil diamond would be nearly impossible to find. The cartridge is undoubtedly a ceramic/piezo with insufficient output level for the radio amp. So, lacking a miracle, it won't adapt. Shame too, after retreading that thin idler wheel (0.068") with a $0.29 "O" ring. It was so hard, I can't believe it was ever soft rubber. I managed to reduce the diameter, cut a shallow groove in its edge to capture the "O" ring, then a apply CA+ to both sides after installing the "O" ring. Beat the H??L outta spending $20-$40 + outrageous UPS shipping at most web sites for a new idler. I really love to hate UPS. Small pkg shipping charges and time is one area where USPS beats the socks off UPS.
marv
:Saphire is the less desirable stylus. Saphire is less desirable because it can chip. Many 78s have bits of steel in the grooves from steel needle usage. Diamond will not chip ordinarily. The many who wrote the book where I read this information said that the BBC used diamond needles on metal matrices for many continuous hours every day, and would change the needles perhaps once a week or every other week. Never did they find a chipped diamond needle.
:
:It is somewhat difficult to find good needles of any make, though. When dealing with thousandths of an inch, it is unlikely that every needle will be identical. I have had some new needles that sound fabulous and some that have a lot of surface noise, and don't fit the groove properly. I usually use saphire because it is more readily obtainable. My rule is that if I wish to keep my fine records fine, I don't play dirty or worn records. As soon as I start playing the noisy ones, I can be sure that my needle will soon be either dull (garbled treble response at the center of the record) or chipped (surface noise and lots of black powder).
:
:3 mil is ideal. I don't know of any 7 mil needles for audio reproduction, unless you mean .7 mil, which is for LP and 45 records. 3 mil is fine. 2.5 mil is barely acceptable. Those all-speed needles can play fine on some records and can damage others. 3.5 mil, if you can get it, is better for some pre-war records. Those records that are shiny, but have surface noise unless the needle is pushed against one of the walls of the groove have grooves that are too wide for the needle being used. Pre-war records generally have wider grooves, but this can also be due to a poor initial cut (bad cutting needle) or a record that has been stamped too many times. I'm Gettin' Sentimental Over You, Chatnooga Choo Choo, White Christmas (first veresion), and Andre Kostelanetz Musical Comedy Favorites Volume I are examples of where you may obtain records that were stamped way too many times, since they were in high demand. I have yet to obtain a chatter and swish free copy of Chatanooga/I Know Why, though they must be out there (probably in New York), since clean recordings have been made onto CDs. I have some late 30s/early 40s copies of Musical Comedy Favorites that sound superb with a good needle (must be selected for perfect fit), though my mid-1940s copies of this album sound over-stamped. My late 40s copies are actually re-recordings of the records. They sound clean, but due to the re-recording, they lack the same treble response of the earliest stampings. This is also a problem you will find of re-recorded Victor records. If you ever get one of Glenn Miller's albums, you'll notice that none of the recordings in the album sound as crisp as the original late 30s/early 40s Bluebird copies. The album records are re-recordings, and you can sometimes even hear when the original recording is started, as you'll hear the surface noise increase ever so slightly. By the late 1940s they had improved their re-recording process somewhat, as you can find "Re-issued by Request" Miller records that sound just as fresh and clean as the originals. If you find 1950s copies of Moonlight Serenade, they are extremely brilliant sounding, though someone must have either slightly sped up the original recording or slightly slowed down the cutting lathe, as the 1950s copies play at an ever so slightly faster rate than the originals. I also believe that the 1940s album copies play slightly slower than the originals, though I can't remember for sure. Those who have musical ears will notice, and those who don't may not notice the difference at all.
:
:T.
Sapphire/Diamond
:
:Sapphire/Diamond
"I assume the SD suffix means synthentic diamond" What I ran into on those turnover versions were the " S " being indicative of the Sapphire....Holy mackeral there, Andy... and " D " for the diamond, with the usual configuration of the S..sapphire utilized for the big 3 mil tip for 78's and its flipside being the smaller LP's D...diamond and its typical 1 mil sizing. HOWEVER there were also SS versions for the real cheapo priced needles....and even osmium. And also, for the person who had NO 78's in his stables to deal with, there was the turnover DD versions with a spare second 1 mil on the flip side. 73's de Edd  7/9/2007 9:25:48 PMMarv Nuce(51896:51889) Z, Thomas, Edd, Thanks for breaking the SD code. Strange little cartridge that Astatic 157D. In the LP mode both the left and right channels are alive, but in the 78's mode, only 1 is alive. Early on, and with the unsatisfactory output level, thought bridging the channels would increase the output. As for output level, found the handy RCA jack on the audio interface xformer from pickup to amp was tapped way down on the primary, so tried using the regular interface (higher Z) to the pickup, and the levels increased dramatically for both LP's and 78's. The severe distortion and lack of low end response remains. Have to run the tone control full bass for even a hint of normal response. The DC R of the xformer measures just a tad over 100 ohms at the primary, but have NO info on the actual Z. Any ideas about required loading of the Astatic 157D or the effects of a transformer interface? A simple "T" or "PI" attenuator may do the trick. marv ::I assume the SD suffix means synthentic diamond, 7/10/2007 12:19:42 AMZ-(51900:51896) [b]:Z, Thomas, Edd, :Thanks for breaking the SD code. Strange little cartridge that Astatic 157D. In the LP mode both the left and right channels are alive, but in the 78's mode, only 1 is alive.[/b] I don't recall anything special from that cartridge. Are you sure about this ? [bThe severe distortion and lack of low end response remains.[/b] Lack of bass response is indicative of poor loading. i.e. Too low impedance will convert a constant amplitude device to a constant velocity. That is what happened here. A piezo device (ceramic, crystal etc.) requires a minimum loading of 1 Meg. The 157 is an HC Ceramic and only has 100mv output...That is among the lowest ceramic cartridges available. 7/11/2007 12:06:34 AMMarv Nuce(51935:51900) Z, Another unique characteristic of this 157D is a consistent 0.5VPP output w/2VPP excursions on peaks with either LP's or 78's. I've loaded w/1uf cap in series w/100k shunt R, and terminated at the amp input sans the xformer. Volume level is more than adequate, and distortion has all but dissappeared. I guess correct loading was the culprit. Further tests on the mysterous missing channel is deemed to be a faulty cartridge. Thanks for the input. marv :[b]:Z, Thomas, Edd, 7/9/2007 9:29:12 PMMarv Nuce(51897:51889) In addition I broke my favorite and possibly best 78. An RCA Tommy Dorsey w/vocal by Marcy Lutes singing "AGAIN" marv ::I assume the SD suffix means synthentic diamond, 7/10/2007 1:08:44 AMThomas Dermody(51902:51897) Z is right about the impedance. You should connect the cartridge directly to the grid of the 1st amplifier tube, through a .5 to 1 meg resistor to limit loading. Of course the grid may be isolated by the conventional capacitor, with accompanying leak resistor. Don't use a transformer. The transformer would have to have a huge primary in order to not load the cartridge.
If distortion results on loud passages, you may want to place the pre-amplifier after the volume control. If the set has a band switch, this might not be possible without adding unnecessary amplification to the radio. Another option is to put a gain control on the pre-amplifier, and then adjust it so that it is just below where distortion results on loud passages. This second option is probably the better one. Be sure that any gain controls associated with the cartridge itself are 1 meg controls or higher, and be sure that the series resistor(s) added are prior to the gain control(s), to assure that the cartridge is not loaded. Thomas T. 7/10/2007 1:34:47 PMMarv Nuce(51908:51902) Thomas/Z, I went back to check the mysterious missing channel in the 78's mode, but couldn't confirm it a second time. I have a cheap little Rad Shack stereo amp on my bench, and the sound quality/volume seems good thru it w/either a 78 or LP. I measured DCR of 650K at its input vs 100 ohms using the Philco trans former. Time to set back and re-think this hook-up. marv :Z is right about the impedance. You should connect the cartridge directly to the grid of the 1st amplifier tube, through a .5 to 1 meg resistor to limit loading. Of course the grid may be isolated by the conventional capacitor, with accompanying leak resistor. Don't use a transformer. The transformer would have to have a huge primary in order to not load the cartridge. 7/9/2007 7:39:11 PMZ-(51894:51883) :The many who wrote the book where I read this information said that the BBC used diamond needles on metal matrices for many continuous hours every day, and would change the needles perhaps once a week or every other week. Never did they find a chipped diamond needle. Can you give the title and author of your reference book. 7/10/2007 12:58:50 AMThomas Dermody(51901:51894) G.A. Briggs Sound Reproduction
7/10/2007 3:20:55 AMPeter G Balazsy(51903:51901) In the mid 1930s, just prior to World War II, G. A. Briggs left his trade of selling cloth and began manufacturing loudspeaker drivers. Like a good many pioneers in the audio trade, he was almost totally unschooled for the part. This never seemed to be a problem, however, and his products made their way in the world at a remarkable pace. His Wharf edale company became a power in the emerging high fidelity field after the war. As well it should have since his products were superior. But Gilbert Arthur Briggs was more than a manufacturer... he was a missionary for excellent sound. He taught himself the fundamentals and wrote a remarkable range of books about good sound. These were written in plain English, making the intricacies of sound reproduction accessible to any reasonably intelligent reader. They sold in the tens of thousands, world-wide. 7/10/2007 2:17:50 PMThomas Dermody(51909:51903) Interesting. I didn't know that. © 1989-2025, Nostalgia Air |