Hopefully someone can help me with this one! About 2 weeks ago, my son got a new computer. Whenever it is on, there is so much interferece that I cannot operate any of my radios. I have tried a filter from Radio Shack, battery operated radios, longer antenna, no help at all. Of course, no interference on FM at all. As soon as he powers down, reception is as clear as a bell. Any suggestions? I am desparate here!! Thanks!!

One suggestion is to try installing an outside antenna. Also is the computer properly grounded and in a metal enclosure?
MRO

:One suggestion is to try installing an outside antenna. Also is the computer properly grounded and in a metal enclosure?
:MRO

Mark, the box on the computer is metal, I will have to check on the ground, but his previous computer in the same outlet and room didn't give me any trouble. On the antenna, before I invest the money and time, is there an easy way to test that theory? Would running a wire up the side of the house or up a tree prove or dis-prove that logic?
Steve

Steve,
I had a similar problem with an Edison R7 after restoration. O'scoped what appeared to be a 120Hz hum problem in the audio section, but found it along with many other disturbances back to the RF section of this TRF. It was unclear whether power or RF source induced. Used a batt powered AM set with a small whip antenna, going thru my entire house, and found unwelcome results. AC power distribution bars, PC's, unpowered TV's, stereos, wireless networks were all contributors to AM noise spectrum. An outdoor antenna might have helped to eliminate my indoor pollution, but would be equally susceptible to neighbors and other outside influences. I enjoyed the restoration process immensely, but as far as today's AM radio availability and noise pollution, opted to call it a day, turn the radio off. Sometimes silence is golden for these old tired ears.

marv

::One suggestion is to try installing an outside antenna. Also is the computer properly grounded and in a metal enclosure?
::MRO
:
:Mark, the box on the computer is metal, I will have to check on the ground, but his previous computer in the same outlet and room didn't give me any trouble. On the antenna, before I invest the money and time, is there an easy way to test that theory? Would running a wire up the side of the house or up a tree prove or dis-prove that logic?
:Steve

The computer monitor alone can be a source of interference. Try powering off the monitor with the computer still running.

Richard

Thanks for all the help so far. I have determined that the computer is properly grounded. Turning off the monitor didn't help. I called the place that built the computer and he says that the power supply is much larger than the one in the older model and that is what is causing the RF interference and that there is no solution other than powering down the CPU when I turn on a radio. That is not a good answer, but maybe Marv is right and silence is golden at times. Still open for any other suggestions...

Steve,
There have been a number of solutions offered over the years for AM noise pollution. First to come to mind is the mechanical filter, aimed at super hets, and primarily HF communications receivers. With various bandwidths and practically vertical skirts at the corner frequencies, but very lossy, requiring additional if amplification. Many other devices have been introduced with dubious success, such as pico second diodes/circuitry in the IF string to shunt noise impulses to ground before arriving at the audio amps.
My solution would be a grounded ferrous metal enclosure for the entire receiver with a very small aperture for antenna/earth ground leads. A large long wire antenna well removed from local interference sources such as homes with PC's, TV's, wireless networks, industrial arc welders, nearby transmitting towers, ie radio, TV, cell phone, police, fire and ambulances, airport towers and the list goes on, but you've still got the old style CB radios and family radios to deal with on occassion. There is nothing more pleasant or nostalgic than a high quality antique radio tuned to a quality AM broadcast station offering high quality music of yesteryear, but where are they??????

marv

:Thanks for all the help so far. I have determined that the computer is properly grounded. Turning off the monitor didn't help. I called the place that built the computer and he says that the power supply is much larger than the one in the older model and that is what is causing the RF interference and that there is no solution other than powering down the CPU when I turn on a radio. That is not a good answer, but maybe Marv is right and silence is golden at times. Still open for any other suggestions...

I'll bet your son's computer was not put into an FCC certified class "B" case. ASk the guy who built it. He probably used a class "a" case to safe a little money.. or he doesn't know the FCC requirement for HOME use computers.
If you do get it into a class "b" case and ground it properly... the RFI should not be a problem.

You can find quality class "b" cases on line at reasonable prices however.

Here's a little info.
MAKE sure you read the very last line and show it to the dealer.
-------------------
FCC RFI limits are set in order to prevent computer equipment from interfering with the operation of radio and television receivers. Two different limits have been set, depending on the typical application and marketing of the computer equipment. The class "A" FCC limits are for equipment intended for use in commercial and industrial environments. The more stringent class "B" limits are for residential environments where TV and radio interference is more of a problem. Most personal computers are required to meet the class "B" limits since they are often sold for home use.

Sale of such equipment requires that the manufacturer receive a FCC CERTIFICATION letter and registration number. Larger mini-computers and networking equipment are only required to meet class "A" because they are sold for commercial use. Compliance with the FCC class "A" limit need only is verified by the equipment manufacturer.

http://www.fcc.gov

FCC Certified Top
A statement of compliance with U.S. FCC class "B" limits for radio frequency emission, which is issued by the FCC and accompanied by a FCC "registration" or "ID" number. Certified equipment must be marked with the ID number. Personal computer equipment marketed to the residential user must be FCC certified CLASS "B".

Peter, Thanks...that is very eye opening...It sounds like that is the situation and that the case is not in compliance although it is metal. I checked the computer and all the documentation that I was given and I don't see a compliance statement or sticker anywhere. I have an email in to the company and I will let you and everyone else know the response.

:Peter, Thanks...that is very eye opening...It sounds like that is the situation and that the case is not in compliance although it is metal. I checked the computer and all the documentation that I was given and I don't see a compliance statement or sticker anywhere. I have an email in to the company and I will let you and everyone else know the response.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is no way to confine the RF from the computer, printer, scanner, monitor, modem, cables, etc. It is a waste of time to even try. Turn the computer off when listening to your antique radios.

Dave

What I have done with some success is to make my own filters. Wireless internet is the worst offender, though filtering the power line and installing a good outdoor antenna helps. If you own any radios capable of handling an outdoor doublet antenna, this antenna will eliminate a lot of static. Check out the Crosley 1117 for an example of a radio with a doublet antenna transformer. My Crosley is the only example I currently own that is capable of using this antenna. It performs flawlesly when light dimmers are operated. The radio is otherwise cluttered with static when operated with a conventional antenna, as are other conventionally operated radios. Check out the General Electric section of this web page for an example of this antenna. Use about 25 to 50 feet of wire and insulate into two halves--insulator should be placed at halfway point. About 3 feet on each side of the insulator solder a 3 to 4 foot piece of wire. Connect each of these wires to the leads of old style flat twin lead 300 ohm television antenna lead-in (usually brown in color, and can be found at Radio Shack). The twin-lead should be 100 feet in length, and excess should be coiled up, not trimmed off. In the case of the Crosley 1117, the two leads would be connected to A1 and A2. G would be connected to a water pipe. The antenna coil primary should not be grounded in any way. You may be able to secure similar results with a conventional antenna coil by disconnecting the ground lead from the chassis. Call this lead A2 and connect to the other of the two twin lead leads. Ground the chassis as necessary, but in no way connect the antenna primary to ground. This forms a balanced lead-in. Static received by one wire in the lead-in cable will be out of phase with that in the other wire. They will cancel.

For radios which are not capable of using outdoor antennas, I purchase small ferrite chokes from Radio Shack. Short 1 to 1.5 inch ferrite sticks can be purchased with about two layers of wire on each. Wire two of them to the line cord on any radio--one per side of the line cord. Install .05 to .1 MFD condensers after and/or before these filters. Experimentation determines best placement of condensers. I find that after the chokes yields best results. Prior to chokes (plug side) often increases static for me. You can install a condenser across the radio side of the chokes and/or one on the plug side, or you can install two on the radio side and/or plug side, and connect their junction to the chassis (where the two meet). Filtering the line cord may reduce reception, as the line cord is the radio's ground in most cases. A separate ground may be necessary (radiator, for example...I have plenty of these at my disposal in my appartment. They heat well and make perfect grounds!). Grounding AC-DC radios isn't recommended, though you can try to through a .o5 to .1 MFD condenser. Hum will result if the plug is inserted the wrong way, and may result with it in either way with some radios.

You can also try installing the chokes and/or condensers on the computer line cord. Sometimes a .o5 to .1 MFD condenser is all that it takes. I installed a nice little .1 MFD 200 WVDC condenser on the dimmer unit for my under cabinet halogen lights. Used to be that the radio I have plugged into the same outlet was useless at all times when the lights were on at any brilliance. The simple addition of this small condenser across the line cord has made the radio a real performer on all local stations. More interference is present, of course, when the lights are operated at less than full brilliance.

Of course when do I really use that radio anymore? When do I use any of my radios? AM radio really does suck. When I have time this summer, I'm going to build my little 4 tube transmitter (3 #41 tubes and an 84/6Z4....the 3 #41s will serve as driver, oscillator, and class C RF amplifier). Then I'll have a use for my radios. Sometimes I am very tempted to build a small super regenerative FM circuit for all of my radios and then link this to the tuning mechanism via a cam or something. I could then write to the one AM station left that used to play really good big band on Saturdays and tell them that I've happily converted all of my radios to FM, and that I will never have to listen to their crappy station again. I wish I could convert all of my radios in a very good way without ruining their values. It'd be cool, say, if I had a lot of money (which I don't). I'd have new numbers printed on the dials in the same fonts as the old ones, and I'd reconfigure the circuitry so that the same tubes do a new trick (FM). That'd really be considered butchering, though. Best that I don't. I'd feel guilty doing that anyway. As much as I hate what is on AM now, I've always enjoyed that sound AM has. When you pull in all of those distant fading and drifting stations, it's a lot of fun. It's like listening to the living breathing U.S.A. or something. Short wave is a blast, too. When you listen to AM, you can almost go on a journey through the world. On FM all you get is a loud hiss between local stations (even with good radios). AM's frequency range isn't great for classical music, but it's always sounded fine with big band and Latin music. It's kind of fuzzy sounding, too, though quite acceptable. It's amazing how so many modern AM car radios chop the heck out of the listenable frequency range. Those radios, with all of their fidelity on FM, sound terrible on AM. Treble is gone on most modern AM radios. The old ones that we restore bring out all of the subtle beauty and richness that can be passed over AM. Most people think that AM is a lot worse sounding than it really is due to these poorly designed new radios.

Thomas

Hmm...I miswrote something. This:

You can install a condenser across the radio side of the chokes and/or one on the plug side, or you can install two on the radio side and/or plug side, and connect their junction to the chassis (where the two meet).

....should say "or you can install two IN SERIES on the radio side and/or plug side, and connect their junction to the chassis (where the two meet)."

:Hmm...I miswrote something. This:
:
:You can install a condenser across the radio side of the chokes and/or one on the plug side, or you can install two on the radio side and/or plug side, and connect their junction to the chassis (where the two meet).
:
:....should say "or you can install two IN SERIES on the radio side and/or plug side, and connect their junction to the chassis (where the two meet)."

Steve,
Does the new PC have a wireless keyboard or mouse? If so you might try going back to a standard keyboard and mouse. As a general rule PCs don't generate a lot of RFI. I have an old National NC-109 positioned three feet from my homemade 1.9Ghz PC and I get absolutly no interferance. However, the electrostatic air cleaner eight feet away generates substantial interferance. As an aside, back way long ago when I was maintaining room filling main frame computers we had a program that we would run during preventive maintenance down time at the Christmas season. We would set a small transistor radio tuned off station on top of the processor cabinet. running the program would cause the radio to play Christmas carols.

That's pretty hillarious about Christmas carols. Not completely related, but the Nextel phones we used at one of my old jobs would make the dot matrix printer cartridge move slowly across the page. It'd also create a nasty clicking sound in radios and regular telephones.

Regarding computer interference, I am by no means an expert at all. However, in my very limited experience, aside from wireless internet, I have found that the majority of interference comes from power supplies and surge protectors. The surge protectors are an easy fix as they are often separate from the computer. Thank goodness my parents' finally shorted out. That thing was a real noise maker. Other power supplies that can creat AM noise for reasons that are unknown to me are cell phone chargers. Every now and then one will create a humming or other strange noise in one of my radios. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the same room as the radio.

As far as computers generating RFI, the only places where I find this so is when I'm at work (probably for reasons that Peter stated). Whenever I've brought one of my radios to work, it has always picked up the blurbing and rushing sounds of data going through the computers. I have no idea what systems were in use in these various places. Could have been easy for the radio to pick up all the interference, too, because most of these buildings were steel (poor radio reception leads to picking up of other things) Could have even had something wireless associated with some of the computers. Filtering the line cord of your radio may or may not help in this case. I have limited experience with experimentation with my radios while at work. I try not to. I also don't have the kind of job anymore that would allow me to bring in a radio.

Regarding my earlier suggestion for a filter on the line cord of a radio, if you find that a filter on both sides of the cord severely limits reception, and you don't have a convenient ground at your disposal, try filtering only one side (I have tried this with mild success, and did this in a location that had wireless internet). Plug the radio in so that the choked side is hot, and is preferrably not the side that goes to the switch on the volume control. You may connect a condenser on the radio side of the filter, from the filter to the cold side of the line cord. You may also try connecting a condenser from the cold side of the cord to the chassis if the radio is an AC type, and otherwise has no connection between the chassis and the line cord. If the radio is an AC-DC radio, it probably already has the chassis connected to the line cord through a condenser or directly. The best static elimination without detriment to reception is with a filter either on one or both sides of the line cord and with a wire from the chassis to a radiator pipe. Connecting a ground wire to the ground screw on your outlet may or may not introduce noise, depending upon what other noise producing devices are plugged into that circuit. The ground on the AC supply in your house is not necessarily a noise free one. Air registers can be, though they aren't always grounded, either. Water pipes and radiators are the best.

Also, I have had some luck with tuned filters. I have experimented with various sized coils (usually like the chokes that Radio Shack sells, or home made air coils wound on a 1/2 inch dowel...about 50 turns of wire or so) and condensers. Generally anything .1 MFD and less is well suited for RF supression. Anything over .1 MFD is just sucking extra power from the line cord. I have used very small mica condensers to remove some types of noises. With such tuned filters, however, you might not remove static from all parts of the dial, and you may receive a different kind of static on a different day. Still, if you don't mind probing around the AC cord while the set is running, trying out various condenser set-ups can be quite interesting. It's always a surprise when you slip and there's a huge spark and a bang. I've almost had a heart attack a few times from this.

Thomas

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will play around with the filters on the line cord. I have definately determined that the computer itself is causing this. The printer and monitor are the same as before the new box and the mouse and keyboard are not wireless. The problem seems to be in the new powersupply if I were to take a guess. I still think that the company that built it did nothing to make in comply with FCC regulations regarding RFI. In fact, they have not returned my calls or email today...if that tells you anything...
Someone suggested just turning off the computer when I listen to the antique radios (which is not an option really and it doesn't affect only my antique radios, it is all of them!!), but we have four computers in our home and this new one is the only one causing a problem. My work computer which I am on right now is on the same circut, and only several feet from many of my radios and it causes no interference at all. It all seems to trace back to the new computer. Maybe I should have bought a name brand, but I like to support the local guys as much as I can.
Also, people have said that there is not much worth listening to on AM. That is true sometimes, but we have a local station that has some decent shows on the weekends, big band, jazz, Frankie, etc. Also, at night I can pull in stations from all over the country it seems on my Philco 38-93 with an long piece of wire that is wrapped around at the ceiling of my office. So for me, solving this problem is worth the time and effort. My 7 year old loves to listen with me to the ball games from other cities and also the SW band on my Stromberg Carlson 325J (which I might add is built like a tank!). So it is a labor of love for all of us I guess...

Try filtering the computer before you try any filters on the radios. If you can eliminate the problem right at the computer, you'll eliminate a lot of work.

Regarding programming, depends on the city you live in, I guess. Milwaukee just doesn't have anything anymore.

Thomas

That's funny!! I was just up in Eau Claire and got a couple of stations that still play music on AM. They may have been coming out of St. Paul. Small world!!

Well, actually Kenosha has an oldies staiton, WLIP. It's
fairly audible in Milwaukee. I'm not that much into oldies anymore, and since I'm not old enough to have experienced them for the first time, I don't have any real memories from them. I do recall listening to "Lightning's striking again...." on my RCA 66X5 chassis--the first radio I ever repaired. This radio had no case because it broke into pieces. I loved the radio, though.

WOKY here in Milwaukee will give you your share of Neil Diamond, Barbara Streisand (sp?), Barry Manalow, and all those other easy listening reminiscing singers. They're cool and all, but their music REALLY gets old fast. They also play Frank 'n' Friends on Saturdays. I'm not a real fan of Frank, though. He was a good singer, but his lifestyle doesn't appeal to me, and I don't understand why he has so many die-hard fans when there are so many other artists that were just as good, but not just as harsh. The bad ones tend to stick in people's minds, I guess, and bad is cool or something.
Who knows...all I hear about him is rumor, anyway, so it isn't all necessarily true. Besides all of that, his music is WAY overplayed. There was so much beautiful music from the 1930s and 1940s, and it is all lost because it isn't bad and cool. Shame.

Oh well.

T.

:That's funny!! I was just up in Eau Claire and got a couple of stations that still play music on AM. They may have been coming out of St. Paul. Small world!!
:

Steve,
Take your VOM and check for a difference of pontential between your computer cabinet and the radio chassis. If you don't have any volts there then connect a wire between one of the power supply mounting screws on the back of the PC's cabinet and the radio's chassis. If you have volts between the units then ground both of them solidly to the house ground at the same point. If you have volts don't connect a wire between them or you will create a ground loop and that ain't good.
Will

::That's funny!! I was just up in Eau Claire and got a couple of stations that still play music on AM. They may have been coming out of St. Paul. Small world!!
::
:
:Steve,
:Take your VOM and check for a difference of pontential between your computer cabinet and the radio chassis. If you don't have any volts there
then connect a wire between one of the power supply mounting screws on the back of the PC's cabinet and the radio's chassis. If you have volts between the units then ground both of them solidly to the house ground at the same point. If you have volts don't connect a wire between them or you will create a ground loop and that ain't good.
:Will

Steve,
Another suggestion: If you suspect the PC's power supply you could swap it with one from another of your PCs. They are all the same except for wattage capability. Usually they run 300, 350, or 400 watts. You can replace a 400 with a 300 for a short test. They are very easy to remove and replace. Three or four screws near the fan grille on the back of the cabinet, one or two plugs to the system board, and the plugs to your internal drives. The plugs to the board will have squeeze latches and all the plugs are unique to their sockets and you can't get them mixed up. You will find extra drive plugs and any of them will work if the plug fits the receptical. Perhaps your builder will loan you a supply to try. If he's like me he will have several good ones around. We're talking about transformerless switching power supplies here and they have lethal voltages inside so don't poke around in it with the power on. Also, the plug or plugs to the board will be a 20 pin and maybe a 4 pin. If your board uses the 4 pin and it isn't present on the replacement supply the PC will still run ok without for your test.
Will

:::That's funny!! I was just up in Eau Claire and got a couple of stations that still play music on AM. They may have been coming out of St. Paul. Small world!!
:::
::
::Steve,
::Take your VOM and check for a difference of pontential between your computer cabinet and the radio chassis. If you don't have any volts there
:then connect a wire between one of the power supply mounting screws on the back of the PC's cabinet and the radio's chassis. If you have volts between the units then ground both of them solidly to the house ground at the same point. If you have volts don't connect a wire between them or you will create a ground loop and that ain't good.
::Will
:
:
:Steve,
:Another suggestion: If you suspect the PC's power supply you could swap it with one from another of your PCs. They are all the same except for wattage capability. Usually they run 300, 350, or 400 watts. You can replace a 400 with a 300 for a short test. They are very easy to remove and replace. Three or four screws near the fan grille on the back of the cabinet, one or two plugs to the system board, and the plugs to your internal drives. The plugs to the board will have squeeze latches and all the plugs are unique to their sockets and you can't get them mixed up. You will find extra drive plugs and any of them will work if the plug fits the receptical. Perhaps your builder will loan you a supply to try. If he's like me he will have several good ones around. We're talking about transformerless switching power supplies here and they have lethal voltages inside so don't poke around in it with the power on. Also, the plug or plugs to the board will be a 20 pin and maybe a 4 pin. If your board uses the 4 pin and it isn't present on the replacement supply the PC will still run ok without for your test.
:Will

Steve,
Your new PC will have a soft power down supply and there won't be any connection to the power button on the front of the cabinet. Power is controlled through the 20 pin plug from the system board. An older PC may not have this type of supply. If you see a supply with two single row plugs about 1 1/2 invches long it won't work in your new PC.
Will

If you connect a wire between the PC and the radio, won't that help the interference get to the radio?

T.

:If you connect a wire between the PC and the radio, won't that help the interference get to the radio?
:
:T.

Thomas,
It might. I just reasoned that it was an easy fix to try and couldn't hurt if there is no potential between them. In a large computer system all the cabinets were connected together with a seperate wire if they wern't physicly bolted together. RFI was especially troublesom to a magnetic character reader in a check sorter. I have actually 'scoped the signal from a local AM station on the frame of a sorter. Running a braided wire from the sorter frame to the sorter buffer cabinet fixed the trouble that it was causing. I think that Steve has a faulty switcher power supply in his new PC.

Will

I've been looking through my "Drake's Cyclopedia of Radio and Electronics." For claiming that their book is up to date and modern, many items mentioned within the text are quite outdated for 1946 (such as running board antennas...there is no mention of whip antennas, which were quite common on cars in 1946). At any rate, one interesting thing I came across was a device made by Motorola called the "Magic Eliminode." Since I do not have one, and all I have to look at is a drawing and a schematic, I cannot come up with exact details. Basically, however, it is a noise cancelling device. You have two coils, probably rather small, winding wise, as you don't want them to choke out the radio signal. Actual construction of the original unit is quite different, but for experimental purposes you may try two coils mounted on a tube with one or two movable ferrite slugs present in the center (much like a permeably tuned IF transformer). An IF transformer might actually work, or if the impedance seems to cancel reception, you may remove the original windings and wind smaller ones, say 50 to 100 turns of wire. I'm not sure what the rather large turn-count of a 455 KC unit will do with incoming signals. The entire unit must be mounted in a metal box, and all wires leaving the box must be shielded as well. One of the coils is wired between the receiver antenna and the receiver (assuming that you're using a long wire antenna, or in the case of the original unit, a whip antenna on an auto). The wire leading from the coil to the receiver has a very small value condenser going from it to the housing of this device. The condenser is of small enough value that it doesn't affect performance. One or two very small impedance (like 8 turns of 16 gauge wire) chokes are also placed between the above coil and the receiver. The condenser mentioned previously is connected at a point between the coil and these chokes. The other coil is grounded on one side and connected to a long wire on the other side. This coil should be wired out of phase with the antenna coil, and out of phase might have to be determined experimentally. The long wire coming off of this coil should be connected to or laid close to the source of interference. In this case your computer is the source of interference. This wire should be shielded like all of the other wires except where it is laid next to or connected to the interfering source. Adjust the above coils until interference disappears. If interference doesn't disappear, try reversing connections to one of the two coils. You may try grounding the Eliminode's chassis. This may or may not help.

Thomas

Thanks again for all the help. I wish I could tell you all how frustrated I am with this situation. The business that built the computer will not return my calls or emails. They obviously know that they are not producing a Class B compliant product, but won't address the situation, likely becuase they are trying to save money. I will keep you all posted. I do not think that I should have to cover the expense of a new case or different power supply since they are at fault here. I really don't want to spend the time and effort to create a line cord with all the necessary filters unless I have to, but I will if need be.

Why don´t you report them to the FCC if this is the case. Give them a few more calls. Give them a month to reply. After a couple more calls, suggest that you might have to take this up with the FCC. The FCC is nasty, and this company probably doesn´t want to deal with them. Now, your radiation problem isn´t the worst on earth. It still might be of concern to the FCC. Considering how harsh they are to radio transmitters that go out of range, they may be pretty harsh on this company, too. You paid a lot of money for your computer. Never feel sympathetic for a company that doesn´t back up their product. That´s how certain car companies bully car owners into paying out of pocket for inexcusable problems like differentials that break after 20K miles or engines that burn oil at only 100K miles. A certain European car company has you pay out of pocket for windows that crash to the bottom of the door after only 30K miles, unless you mention "class action law suit." ...And if they won´t even return your calls and letters, you should have no mercy.

Thomas

You cn make demands...but perhaps it's better to not pee on each other's toes.. try a pleasant peaceful approach first..
You might try a compromise with the computer reseller.

Ask them if they will allow you some credit to exchange the case for a Class B case. they take back the old case and charge you the dif for a new one and maybe some sharing in the labor...
But it is rather EASY to do the whole thing yourself too.

You can find good reasonably priced units on the net... cheap... maybe 40-60 bucks I'm guessing or cheaper.