Battery Eliminator Kit From AES-Help!

1/27/2006 5:23:19 PMHerman Hoopes

I built my K-101A kit 4 years ago and have used it off and on. I got it out the other day and checked the voltages prior to hooking it up to a 20's TRF. All five of my B voltages are each about 60V too high. I contacted AES and their kit expert told me today they do not have the tech resources to help. He said maybe a diode? It's got 15 diodes!

It uses a seconary winding dedicated to the B supply through a rectifier bridge into two voltage regulating transistors-a TIP47 and a MPS U04. Not knowing squat about this stuff, I figure the dividing diodes are all ok but whatever is regulating the whole B section is off 60V. Any ideas, anyone? Thanks.

1/27/2006 5:37:10 PMThomas Dermody

I think that zener diodes do some regulation. If these fail, your voltages will be off.

Thomas

1/27/2006 5:50:21 PMHerman Hoopes

:I think that zener diodes do some regulation. If these fail, your voltages will be off.
:
:Thomas

Tom, there's many, essentially used to reduce, separate or whatever the B voltages. They're doing their job it would appear since I still have the proper separation-just 60V too much at each step. Herman

1/27/2006 6:32:32 PMRich, W3HWJ

Herman
What kind of meter are you using to measure the voltages? Are you sure the negative lead is connected to ground? Are any of the voltages reading correctly?

Rich

::I think that zener diodes do some regulation. If these fail, your voltages will be off.
::
::Thomas
:
:Tom, there's many, essentially used to reduce, separate or whatever the B voltages. They're doing their job it would appear since I still have the proper separation-just 60V too much at each step. Herman

1/27/2006 7:19:05 PMHerman Hoopes

:Rich, the meter is a little Sears digital multi meter. My A and C voltages adjust within their specified parameters. The neg lead goes to my B- on the breadboarded kit. None of the five B voltages are correct. I haven't ruled out the meter totally, nor anything else at this stage. This setup used to work using this meter to check before hooking up a radio. I may just run out and get another meter before haphazzardly buying parts and desoldering. Thanks, Herman
:
:Herman
:What kind of meter are you using to measure the voltages? Are you sure the negative lead is connected to ground? Are any of the voltages reading correctly?
:
:Rich
:
:
:::I think that zener diodes do some regulation. If these fail, your voltages will be off.
:::
:::Thomas
::
::Tom, there's many, essentially used to reduce, separate or whatever the B voltages. They're doing their job it would appear since I still have the proper separation-just 60V too much at each step. Herman

1/27/2006 10:30:08 PMBob

Do you have the schematic diagram for the K-101A?
Diode D14 is a 22 v zener in the emitter of Q2 MPS W42 and should clamp the emitter of Q2 at 22 volts. Changing output voltages are applied to the base of Q2 and those changes are sensed on the base of the pass transistor Q1 TIP47. The other 10 diodes in the B+ supply are all 11 volt zeners. Check D14 for 22 volts and check D4 thru D13 for 11 volt drops across each.
The thermistor R1 should be 100 ohms cold.

1/28/2006 12:44:02 PMHerman Hoopes

:Do you have the schematic diagram for the K-101A?
:Diode D14 is a 22 v zener in the emitter of Q2 MPS W42 and should clamp the emitter of Q2 at 22 volts. Changing output voltages are applied to the base of Q2 and those changes are sensed on the base of the pass transistor Q1 TIP47. The other 10 diodes in the B+ supply are all 11 volt zeners. Check D14 for 22 volts and check D4 thru D13 for 11 volt drops across each.
:The thermistor R1 should be 100 ohms cold.

1/28/2006 1:01:16 PMHerman Hoopes

Bob, The thermistor measures 56 ohms, cold and in circuit-power off. D14 shows nothing, power on, from lead to Q2 and to B-. All the little diodes between the B+ voltages must be ok, because the voltage readings show the requisite decrements working down from the 135+. If I take away the extra 60V all the way through, I'll be fine.

I'm probably trying to measure D14 incorrectly. The manual says the thermistor should read about 100V. I don't know if 56 is close enough to "about" 100 or not. Thoughts? Thanks, Herman

1/28/2006 1:24:32 PMJK

Do you have the schematic for the kit? I'm pretty new to vacum tubes, but i know a little about stransistorized stuff. A schematic would make things alot easier to diagnose.

1/28/2006 7:57:17 PMBob

:Bob, The thermistor measures 56 ohms, cold and in circuit-power off. D14 shows nothing, power on, from lead to Q2 and to B-. All the little diodes between the B+ voltages must be ok, because the voltage readings show the requisite decrements working down from the 135+. If I take away the extra 60V all the way through, I'll be fine.
:
:I'm probably trying to measure D14 incorrectly. The manual says the thermistor should read about 100V. I don't know if 56 is close enough to "about" 100 or not. Thoughts? Thanks, Herman

Herman, Here is what my K-101A sez.. with no load on any supply voltage.
Q2 E 21.9 v, B 22.6 v, C 131.2v
Q1 E 130.6 v, B 131.2 v, C 177.6v.
B- was the reference for making all measurements.

My thermistor measured 53 ohms cold, in circuit.
If you need the schematic I can send it to you...

Bob

1/28/2006 9:39:29 PMHerman Hoopes

:
::Bob, The thermistor measures 56 ohms, cold and in circuit-power off. D14 shows nothing, power on, from lead to Q2 and to B-. All the little diodes between the B+ voltages must be ok, because the voltage readings show the requisite decrements working down from the 135+. If I take away the extra 60V all the way through, I'll be fine.
::
::I'm probably trying to measure D14 incorrectly. The manual says the thermistor should read about 100V. I don't know if 56 is close enough to "about" 100 or not. Thoughts? Thanks, Herman
:
:
:Herman, Here is what my K-101A sez.. with no load on any supply voltage.
:Q2 E 21.9 v, B 22.6 v, C 131.2v
:Q1 E 130.6 v, B 131.2 v, C 177.6v.
:B- was the reference for making all measurements.
:
:My thermistor measured 53 ohms cold, in circuit.
:If you need the schematic I can send it to you...
:
:Bob

Bob and others who have been kind enough to respond--I have the schematic in the manual that came with the pile of parts. I don't know the emitter from the base on a trasistor, but I have zip going into Q2 from D14. I'll go and measure all the transistor voltages and use the proper part names to I.D. these. Those who have asked for a schematic please email me hermanhoopes@yahoo.com and I'll relearn the scanner for email sending. I never could program the VCR and now we have a DVD recorder/player and the internet! Thanks, guys.

1/28/2006 2:13:24 PMGary W. Prutchick

Hi Herman,

I may be able to help.
Can you email me the schematic?

Gary

:I built my K-101A kit 4 years ago and have used it off and on. I got it out the other day and checked the voltages prior to hooking it up to a 20's TRF. All five of my B voltages are each about 60V too high. I contacted AES and their kit expert told me today they do not have the tech resources to help. He said maybe a diode? It's got 15 diodes!
:
:It uses a seconary winding dedicated to the B supply through a rectifier bridge into two voltage regulating transistors-a TIP47 and a MPS U04. Not knowing squat about this stuff, I figure the dividing diodes are all ok but whatever is regulating the whole B section is off 60V. Any ideas, anyone? Thanks.

1/29/2006 12:08:44 PMHerman Hoopes

:Hi Herman,

Gary, I'm working on the email thing with scanner.

and Bob if still following this. My transistors measure:
Q2- E .1V, B 84V, C 193V
Q1- E 197V, B 93.6V, C 198V momentarily then no reading. This doesn't tell me what's bad. I'm inclined to snip the diode to see if it's open. Herman
:
:I may be able to help.
:Can you email me the schematic?
:
:Gary
:
:
:
::I built my K-101A kit 4 years ago and have used it off and on. I got it out the other day and checked the voltages prior to hooking it up to a 20's TRF. All five of my B voltages are each about 60V too high. I contacted AES and their kit expert told me today they do not have the tech resources to help. He said maybe a diode? It's got 15 diodes!
::
::It uses a seconary winding dedicated to the B supply through a rectifier bridge into two voltage regulating transistors-a TIP47 and a MPS U04. Not knowing squat about this stuff, I figure the dividing diodes are all ok but whatever is regulating the whole B section is off 60V. Any ideas, anyone? Thanks.

1/29/2006 2:28:03 PMJK

Here's some info on the transistors.
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/NTE198.html This is the info on the TIP47

Here is the MSU04 http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/NTE190.html

First of all make sure your u don't have a short somewhere. Second Check the values of resistors R1, R5, and R8. Make sure u have good soldered joints, a bad connection could throw of voltages. But check those first. Be sure to remove i lead from the rest of the circuit. also check the numbers of the diodes, and be sure u didn't get one that might not be able to handle the voltage, and the current. (mainly the zenner diodes)

1/29/2006 3:44:26 PMBob

Herman... It looks like multiple problems to me... If the collector voltage on Q1 disappears after momentarily being 193, most likely R1 has opened.
D14 in the emitter of Q2 looks shorted. It should be close to the zener voltage of 22 volts. I would check both transistors to make sure they are OK and D14 to see if it is shorted.

Bob

1/29/2006 4:28:00 PMHerman Hoopes

:::Hi Herman,
::
::
::Gary, I'm working on the email thing with scanner.
::
::and Bob if still following this. My transistors measure:
::Q2- E .1V, B 84V, C 193V
::Q1- E 197V, B 93.6V, C 198V momentarily then no reading. This doesn't tell me what's bad. I'm inclined to snip the diode to see if it's open. Herman
:::
:::I may be able to help.
:::Can you email me the schematic?
:::
:::Gary
:
:
:Herman... It looks like multiple problems to me... If the collector voltage on Q1 disappears after momentarily being 193, most likely R1 has opened.
:D14 in the emitter of Q2 looks shorted. It should be close to the zener voltage of 22 volts. I would check both transistors to make sure they are OK and D14 to see if it is shorted.
:
:Bob

I'm starting with D14. I don't like this diode now on general principles. The saga will continue until I buy an ARBE 111. Thanks, Again all. Herman

1/30/2006 10:36:36 AMHerman Hoopes

::::Hi Herman,
:::
:::
:::Gary, I'm working on the email thing with scanner.
:::
:::and Bob if still following this. My transistors measure:
:::Q2- E .1V, B 84V, C 193V
:::Q1- E 197V, B 93.6V, C 198V momentarily then no reading. This doesn't tell me what's bad. I'm inclined to snip the diode to see if it's open. Herman
::::
::::I may be able to help.
::::Can you email me the schematic?
::::
::::Gary
::
::
::Herman... It looks like multiple problems to me... If the collector voltage on Q1 disappears after momentarily being 193, most likely R1 has opened.
::D14 in the emitter of Q2 looks shorted. It should be close to the zener voltage of 22 volts. I would check both transistors to make sure they are OK and D14 to see if it is shorted.
::
::Bob
:
:I'm starting with D14. I don't like this diode now on general principles. The saga will continue until I buy an ARBE 111. Thanks, Again all. Herman

DAYLIGHT HAS CONQUERED STUPIDITY! I thought I had looked for shorts, crummy solder joints and all those first things, first. Well, in my anger with D14 I found the problem. The emitter connection of Q2 that goes to the solder tab that connects it to D14 had separated by a hair. I resoldered the connection, and my B voltages are now fine.

I want to offer my sincerest thanks and humblest apologies to all who have tried to help this dummy. Now, I can go on and see if the Freshman Masterpiece is going to work and not eat up my 01A's. Herman

1/30/2006 11:55:17 AMBob

Now, I can go on and see if the Freshman Masterpiece is going to work and not eat up my 01A's. Herman

Glad you got it working Herman...
01A's are way cooler anyway.....

Bob

1/30/2006 5:56:04 PMHerman Hoopes

: Now, I can go on and see if the Freshman Masterpiece is going to work and not eat up my 01A's. Herman
:
:Glad you got it working Herman...
:01A's are way cooler anyway.....
:
:Bob

Bob, You and the others have taught me to measure everything. The knowledge shared on this forum is a windfall to dummies like me. I got lucky with my first TRF four years ago, minor parts replacement under the board, fired it up and super. It was $25.00 on Ebay and sold as parts or repair. I know I'll never figure out how these damn things work, but it's a thrill when they do after you dabble some. A cold winter night and those three dials in front of you bring in some amazing sounds from far away. Thanks, Herman

1/30/2006 12:07:37 PMGary W. Prutchick

Hi Herman,

Congratulations!

My comment in last nights post was correct,

"The voltages you measured on Q2 indicate Q2 is not conducting at all".

Good Job.
Gary

:::::Hi Herman,
::::
::::
::::Gary, I'm working on the email thing with scanner.
::::
::::and Bob if still following this. My transistors measure:
::::Q2- E .1V, B 84V, C 193V
::::Q1- E 197V, B 93.6V, C 198V momentarily then no reading. This doesn't tell me what's bad. I'm inclined to snip the diode to see if it's open. Herman
:::::
:::::I may be able to help.
:::::Can you email me the schematic?
:::::
:::::Gary
:::
:::
:::Herman... It looks like multiple problems to me... If the collector voltage on Q1 disappears after momentarily being 193, most likely R1 has opened.
:::D14 in the emitter of Q2 looks shorted. It should be close to the zener voltage of 22 volts. I would check both transistors to make sure they are OK and D14 to see if it is shorted.
:::
:::Bob
::
::I'm starting with D14. I don't like this diode now on general principles. The saga will continue until I buy an ARBE 111. Thanks, Again all. Herman
:
:
:DAYLIGHT HAS CONQUERED STUPIDITY! I thought I had looked for shorts, crummy solder joints and all those first things, first. Well, in my anger with D14 I found the problem. The emitter connection of Q2 that goes to the solder tab that connects it to D14 had separated by a hair. I resoldered the connection, and my B voltages are now fine.
:
:I want to offer my sincerest thanks and humblest apologies to all who have tried to help this dummy. Now, I can go on and see if the Freshman Masterpiece is going to work and not eat up my 01A's. Herman

1/29/2006 8:18:49 PMGary W. Prutchick

Hi Herman:

I have the schematic, thanks.

All of the voltages being 60 Volts too high indicates that Q1 is not regulating. It may be shorted, but the voltages you measured on Q2 indicate Q2 is not conducting at all.

Since all of the voltages are over by the same amount you can assume, at least for now, that all of the zener diodes in the output divider are ok.

D14 could still be the culprit by I am guessing that Q1 and/or Q2 are bad.

The first this I would do is remove Q1 & Q2 and check them out of circuit.

While these transistors are removed, you might as well check R3, R4 & R8.

Gary

::Hi Herman,
:
:
:Gary, I'm working on the email thing with scanner.
:
:and Bob if still following this. My transistors measure:
:Q2- E .1V, B 84V, C 193V
:Q1- E 197V, B 93.6V, C 198V momentarily then no reading. This doesn't tell me what's bad. I'm inclined to snip the diode to see if it's open. Herman
::
::I may be able to help.
::Can you email me the schematic?
::
::Gary
::
::
::
:::I built my K-101A kit 4 years ago and have used it off and on. I got it out the other day and checked the voltages prior to hooking it up to a 20's TRF. All five of my B voltages are each about 60V too high. I contacted AES and their kit expert told me today they do not have the tech resources to help. He said maybe a diode? It's got 15 diodes!
:::
:::It uses a seconary winding dedicated to the B supply through a rectifier bridge into two voltage regulating transistors-a TIP47 and a MPS U04. Not knowing squat about this stuff, I figure the dividing diodes are all ok but whatever is regulating the whole B section is off 60V. Any ideas, anyone? Thanks.