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sentinel mod.302t
10/31/2004 1:03:58 AMbutch s.
hi i have been working on this set and am is great but when switched to fm there is only static the 12s8 discriminater tube checks bad on both diode tests and the 33ohm res. on the selenium rect. gets very hot when switched to fm i ordered a new tube but wonder if the diodes not working are a direct cause of the res. overheating one diode shows some emission but very little the other one nothing. i temporarily bypassed the selenium rect. with a silicon diode but nothing changed exept a slight increase in volume thanks. butch
11/1/2004 9:56:20 AMNorm Leal
Hi Butch

Unusual for both detector diodes to go bad. FM does use a different detector circuit so this could be your problem. Most often it's the osc/mixer tube. Even though they test good may not operate on FM frequencies.

Resistor in series with selenium rectifier will be very warm. It's there to take surges and protect the rectifier. Best to replace the selenium rectifier with silicon diode. Over time voltage drop increases and these things give off a bad smell when shorted.

Norm

:hi i have been working on this set and am is great but when switched to fm there is only static the 12s8 discriminater tube checks bad on both diode tests and the 33ohm res. on the selenium rect. gets very hot when switched to fm i ordered a new tube but wonder if the diodes not working are a direct cause of the res. overheating one diode shows some emission but very little the other one nothing. i temporarily bypassed the selenium rect. with a silicon diode but nothing changed exept a slight increase in volume thanks. butch

11/1/2004 10:49:52 PMbutch s.
:hi i have been working on this set and am is great but when switched to fm there is only static the 12s8 discriminater tube checks bad on both diode tests and the 33ohm res. on the selenium rect. gets very hot when switched to fm i ordered a new tube but wonder if the diodes not working are a direct cause of the res. overheating one diode shows some emission but very little the other one nothing. i temporarily bypassed the selenium rect. with a silicon diode but nothing changed exept a slight increase in volume thanks. butch
11/2/2004 10:30:25 AMThomas Dermody
Does the 33 ohm resistor get hot all the time or only when the set is on FM?

If the resistor only gets hot when the set is put to FM, here is a likely problem that I had with a set once, using the miniature tubes: Remove each FM IF transformer from its circuit completely. These transformers are usually rated to operate at 10.7 MC, so if you see this stampped on the can, then this is an FM IF can. With quite a few of the 1950s/1960s sets that have slug tuned IF transformers, the condensers, one for each coil, will be molded into the base of the transformer (plastic part with the terminals). Check to see that neither of these condensers has shorted, and see to it that the primary of each transformer is not shorted to the secondary. Each coil should have several ohms of resistance. No resistance (zero ohms) indicates a shorted condenser across that coil. If there is any connection between the primary and secondary of a transformer that is not shown in the diagram, then there is a short. A short in a primary coil condenser will cause FM not to operate and the power supply may get warmer, and a short from a primary coil to ground (B-) will not only kill the FM, but will also cause a high drain on the power supply. On the last IF transformer, depending on the circuit, some circuits call for a condenser leading from some part of the primary coil to some part of the circuit in the secondary side. This would kill the FM if it shorted, would overload the power supply, and would blow your discriminator diodes.

Apart from the above, check for other condensers that have shorted in the FM section. Sometimes if condensers are in a multi component globule, finding the proper component is somewhat difficult. Usually these epoxy multi-section units of the 1950s and 1960s have numbers on them that correspond to the circuit diagram.

Let me look at your circuit diagram if I can find it here on Nostalgia Air, and let you know what I come up with on that discriminator circuit.

Thomas

11/2/2004 10:41:20 AMThomas Dermody
Of course I could have looked at your diagram before writing the letter. According to your diagram, there is no condenser connecting between the primary and secondary circuits of the last FM IF transformer, so this is not a place for a short. Still, check all IF transformers for shorts across the coils and between the coils.

The discriminator diodes in the 12S8 tube could cause FM trouble because of their weak condition. This would not cause the power supply to overheat. They carry an extremely small amount of current. Actually, if they are weak, this usually doesn't affect the quality of the sound at all. An extremely weak tube can be used as a detector just as well as a strong one.

Anyway, try replacing the tube just for the heck of it, and let me know what you come up with as far as condenser shorts, etc.

Also, when I was talking about multi-component globules, I originally thought your AM-FM set was from the 1950s, but from reading the diagram I see that it's from the 1940s. You're not too likely to find any multi-section components in these radios, though there were some by the late 1940s. By the 1950s and 1960s these were common, though.....sort of like early microchips.

Thomas

11/4/2004 11:08:18 PMbutch s.
:Of course I could have looked at your diagram before writing the letter. According to your diagram, there is no condenser connecting between the primary and secondary circuits of the last FM IF transformer, so this is not a place for a short. Still, check all IF transformers for shorts across the coils and between the coils.
:
:The discriminator diodes in the 12S8 tube could cause FM trouble because of their weak condition. This would not cause the power supply to overheat. They carry an extremely small amount of current. Actually, if they are weak, this usually doesn't affect the quality of the sound at all. An extremely weak tube can be used as a detector just as well as a strong one.
:
:Anyway, try replacing the tube just for the heck of it, and let me know what you come up with as far as condenser shorts, etc.
:
:Also, when I was talking about multi-component globules, I originally thought your AM-FM set was from the 1950s, but from reading the diagram I see that it's from the 1940s. You're not too likely to find any multi-section components in these radios, though there were some by the late 1940s. By the 1950s and 1960s these were common, though.....sort of like early microchips.
:
:Thomas hello i tried the new tube as you said it made no difference. there is something shorted or drawing too omuch power i haven't found it yet but i see two 100k resisters paralelling two caps in the second if and i can't find them anywhere in fact there is only 1 other 100.000 ohm res. and it is on the bandswitch it still works fine on am however i guess i'm in for a lot of checking. thanks for all your help ;butch
11/5/2004 12:03:09 AMThomas Dermody
Those resistors on the second IF are for balancing purposes. The primaries of both coils are always in series. Since the frequency of each coil is so far away from the other coil, they do not affect eachother. Switching from band to band is done by selecting secondaries. One secondary feeds the detector diode for AM, and ends here as far as radio frequencies are concerned, and the other secondary connects to the last FM IF amplifier, which continues on to the final IF transformer for the FM band. If your radio has these omitted, the manufacturer may have felt that the radio worked fine without them. Did you open the IF can? The resistors can sometimes be found inside. Be sure that when you are examining things that you keep in mind that the transformer you are questioning is the 2nd transformer for FM, but the last one for AM. FM has a 3rd transformer. Well, this is probably very obviously laid out on the chassis, so you won't likely be confused. I know you already know this from what you wrote. Just make sure you don't confuse things when actually looking at the radio.

Other than that, all I can say is to look for shorted and leaky condensers, or shorted coils, etc. Does the resistor always get hot or just for FM? Have you tried working backward with a signal generator? You do this by starting with the last FM IF transformer with a signal generator set at 10.7 MC. Work backwards until you get no signal. Use .001 MFD condensers between the generator leads and whatever you connect them to.

Thomas

11/5/2004 12:43:03 PMbutch s.
:Those resistors on the second IF are for balancing purposes. The primaries of both coils are always in series. Since the frequency of each coil is so far away from the other coil, they do not affect eachother. Switching from band to band is done by selecting secondaries. One secondary feeds the detector diode for AM, and ends here as far as radio frequencies are concerned, and the other secondary connects to the last FM IF amplifier, which continues on to the final IF transformer for the FM band. If your radio has these omitted, the manufacturer may have felt that the radio worked fine without them. Did you open the IF can? The resistors can sometimes be found inside. Be sure that when you are examining things that you keep in mind that the transformer you are questioning is the 2nd transformer for FM, but the last one for AM. FM has a 3rd transformer. Well, this is probably very obviously laid out on the chassis, so you won't likely be confused. I know you already know this from what you wrote. Just make sure you don't confuse things when actually looking at the radio.
:
:Other than that, all I can say is to look for shorted and leaky condensers, or shorted coils, etc. Does the resistor always get hot or just for FM? Have you tried working backward with a signal generator? You do this by starting with the last FM IF transformer with a signal generator set at 10.7 MC. Work backwards until you get no signal. Use .001 MFD condensers between the generator leads and whatever you connect them to.
:
:Thomas hi thomas not only are the res. not there it shows a 1 meg. res. going from pin 7 on the second if to the bandswitch, that is not there either.also i noticed that the 470 ohm res. on pin three of the second if looked burnt so i replaced it now the new one is smokingthere is something shorted or a cap. is breaking down as the problem is getting worse i can't use the signal gen. as i can only leave the set on about a minute now before res. overheat.thaks for your help i will keep looking. butch
11/5/2004 2:47:31 PMThomas Dermody
Very interesting. Well, the 1 meg resistor that goes from pin 7 to the band switch connects the FM IF to its source of bias through the band switch selector(the other side of the IF goes to the grid of the last IF tube). With this resistor missing, the set definitely wouldn't function on FM. As for the 470 ohm resistor, I assume you mean #91. Check the .01 MFD condenser for shorts or any leakage (#30). Check the IF primaries for any connections to anything other than what they should be connected to. Disconnect all terminals to this transformer and make sure that the primaries do not connect to the secondaries or to the case. This is strange that the 470 ohm resistor was burned....I thought you said that the AM worked....maybe I'm wrong. The AM part of the IF transformer also receives its power from this resistor, so the AM would not likely work without it. I'll have to take a peak at the diagram again.

At any rate, be thorough. I cannot stress enough how important it is that no condensers have leakage of any kind. The only condensers that can have a small amount of leakage are electrolytics. These shouldn't be less than about a million ohms. All others must drop to infinity--PRECISELY where the needle starts--NO LESS. In your case, however, it sounds like you have a lot more than leakage. It sounds like you have a good short going on somewhere. Also, don't overlook some fault in the grid section of the second IF tube that may be causing this tube to draw too much current. If you absolutely cannot find any trouble with the components I listed above, and this general area, it is slightly possible that something is wrong on the other end of the tube, causing it to draw too much current. If all components check out incredibly well, though, then rule this out for now, and keep your focus where it was before...with condenser #30 and the IF transformer, and things in that area.

If you cannot find trouble, don't go modifying circuits or anything of that nature. There is something wrong. You just aren't finding it yet. The set worked when it was new. It'll work with the same circuit now if you find the trouble. Just be patient and extremely thorough. Don't be afraid to disassemble things and inspect them...just make sure you can put them back together...study them well.

Thomas

11/6/2004 3:23:17 AMbutch s.
:Very interesting. Well, the 1 meg resistor that goes from pin 7 to the band switch connects the FM IF to its source of bias through the band switch selector(the other side of the IF goes to the grid of the last IF tube). With this resistor missing, the set definitely wouldn't function on FM. As for the 470 ohm resistor, I assume you mean #91. Check the .01 MFD condenser for shorts or any leakage (#30). Check the IF primaries for any connections to anything other than what they should be connected to. Disconnect all terminals to this transformer and make sure that the primaries do not connect to the secondaries or to the case. This is strange that the 470 ohm resistor was burned....I thought you said that the AM worked....maybe I'm wrong. The AM part of the IF transformer also receives its power from this resistor, so the AM would not likely work without it. I'll have to take a peak at the diagram again.
:
:At any rate, be thorough. I cannot stress enough how important it is that no condensers have leakage of any kind. The only condensers that can have a small amount of leakage are electrolytics. These shouldn't be less than about a million ohms. All others must drop to infinity--PRECISELY where the needle starts--NO LESS. In your case, however, it sounds like you have a lot more than leakage. It sounds like you have a good short going on somewhere. Also, don't overlook some fault in the grid section of the second IF tube that may be causing this tube to draw too much current. If you absolutely cannot find any trouble with the components I listed above, and this general area, it is slightly possible that something is wrong on the other end of the tube, causing it to draw too much current. If all components check out incredibly well, though, then rule this out for now, and keep your focus where it was before...with condenser #30 and the IF transformer, and things in that area.
:
:If you cannot find trouble, don't go modifying circuits or anything of that nature. There is something wrong. You just aren't finding it yet. The set worked when it was new. It'll work with the same circuit now if you find the trouble. Just be patient and extremely thorough. Don't be afraid to disassemble things and inspect them...just make sure you can put them back together...study them well.
:
:Thomas hi thomas i found the problem with the 470 ohm res. in my checking i had broke the wire off the 01 cap on the #7 pin #30 cap i replaced it and now i'm back to where i started am works fine and fm does'nt this radio does'nt follow the schematic on pin 7 it has a .01 cap going to ground but does'nt go to the bandswitch instead it has a 22,000 ohm res. going to ground right off the #7 pin,also there are three terminals onthe center section of the bandswitch not being used and as there is no trace of solder i don't think they were ever used they are only using 4 terminals on the center section instead of 6 .it only gets the 33ohm res.overheated on fm when you switch to fm you get a hum which fades away after a few min. then the 33 ohm res. starts smoking i'll keep checking thanks for the help i'll figure it out yet. butch


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