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Chev 985697 has different snubber capacitor
8/6/2013 11:01:37 AMEddie
I just got a Chevrolet 9 tube car radio model 985697. It's a 1941 shortwave with 2 IF's! I was surprised there was a car radio with shortwave! I first applied power with all tubes out and it drew 1 amp, but no buzz. I tapped the vibrator a few times, then it buzzed and drew 3A, and I got 720VAC from the transformer. I put all the tubes back in and it would draw up to 8 or 9A with only 115V of B+ (filter capacitors OK - but not checked for C). After several minutes of fiddling around the vibrator seemed to "break in" again after long storage, and it produced 208 VDC of B+ and runs the radio fine with only 8A input current. (Odd - there is 208V from the 0Z4 cathode, but 232V on the 6V6's - is the hash confusing my DMM?) HOWEVER - the resistor in series with the high voltage snubber capacitor is supposed to be 15k ohms - but someone substituted a later style 2.2 k ohm resistor. The snubber is suppposed to be a .008uF according to a United Motors updated service manual, and Rider's vol-12 says the same, but instead, there is a .001uF in there, and it looks like it could be original. It is good and measures .0014uF on a B&K LCR meter. The vibrator is supposed to be a DELCO 8539, or Mallory 839, or Radiart 5308. What it has is a Supreme C-1 which I can't cross reference. I know the snubber network has to match the vibrator and the associated transformer in order to get proper contact life. Did someone alter the snubber network to match a different vibrator? Was there a factory change? This seems like a big change with totally different "timing". I would like to preserve it with a real vibrator as long as possible, rather than go for solid-state vibrator.
Thanks for advice,
Eddie
8/6/2013 9:07:07 PMDoug Criner
Can you link us to a schematic?
8/6/2013 9:39:53 PMEddie
:Can you link us to a schematic?
:
Try this: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/radios/pdf/6D835ums.pdf
This is exactly the same as the manual I downloaded - real good copy. This schematic is also in Riders vol 12 Chevrolet page 7. They both show the same snubber network.
Thank you,
Eddie
8/7/2013 3:37:06 PMDoug Criner
You said that this was a 1941 model, but I note that the schematic is dated 1947. It's possible that some of the differences occurred due to design changes in between those two dates? Here's another thought: assuming the radio was manufactured before the war, repair parts during and soon after the war would have been scarce. Maybe some old-time repairman cobbled together some repair parts (I say old timer, because all the young repairmen went right into the navy).

When you said it had shortwave, I figured it was just the old police band - but this set has HF clear up to 17.8 Mz. I had no idea that car radios were made with such coverage.

Two IF stages, an RF stage, a pair of 6V6s in push-pull, and a dynamic speaker! Were does the DC come from for the speaker's field coil? Usually, in AC sets, the field coil doubles as a choke in the power supply - but maybe this one comes straight off the 6-V battery circuit? I'm wondering if this chassis was adapted from a big, hunky ac-powered radio design? Do you have a car to put the radio in?

Regarding the B+ voltage disparity. If there is any kind of weird waveforms riding on top of the rectifier output, a DMM will behave strangely - even one labeled true RMS. I have a Fluke 179, supposedly true RMS, but it is not - unless the hash is symmetric about the zero axis. But, are you using the DC scale, I assume? Look at the two voltages on a 'scope - that should tell all.

But back to the shortwave bands. How in the world could they have been tuned and listened to while the car is moving? Even with somebody in the passenger seat operating the radio?

8/7/2013 4:03:08 PMClifton
Doug,

He mentioned he hooked up the radio with the tubes out and the vibrator wasn't running and it drew an amp. The speaker most likely has a 6 volt field that draws about an amp of current.

Clifton

:You said that this was a 1941 model, but I note that the schematic is dated 1947. It's possible that some of the differences occurred due to design changes in between those two dates? Here's another thought: assuming the radio was manufactured before the war, repair parts during and soon after the war would have been scarce. Maybe some old-time repairman cobbled together some repair parts (I say old timer, because all the young repairmen went right into the navy).
:
:When you said it had shortwave, I figured it was just the old police band - but this set has HF clear up to 17.8 Mz. I had no idea that car radios were made with such coverage.
:
:Two IF stages, an RF stage, a pair of 6V6s in push-pull, and a dynamic speaker! Were does the DC come from for the speaker's field coil? Usually, in AC sets, the field coil doubles as a choke in the power supply - but maybe this one comes straight off the 6-V battery circuit? I'm wondering if this chassis was adapted from a big, hunky ac-powered radio design? Do you have a car to put the radio in?
:
:Regarding the B+ voltage disparity. If there is any kind of weird waveforms riding on top of the rectifier output, a DMM will behave strangely - even one labeled true RMS. I have a Fluke 179, supposedly true RMS, but it is not - unless the hash is symmetric about the zero axis. But, are you using the DC scale, I assume? Look at the two voltages on a 'scope - that should tell all.
:
:But back to the shortwave bands. How in the world could they have been tuned and listened to while the car is moving? Even with somebody in the passenger seat operating the radio?
:

8/7/2013 9:56:30 PMEddie
:You said that this was a 1941 model, but I note that the schematic is dated 1947. It's possible that some of the differences occurred due to design changes in between those two dates? Here's another thought: assuming the radio was manufactured before the war, repair parts during and soon after the war would have been scarce. Maybe some old-time repairman cobbled together some repair parts (I say old timer, because all the young repairmen went right into the navy).
:
:When you said it had shortwave, I figured it was just the old police band - but this set has HF clear up to 17.8 Mz. I had no idea that car radios were made with such coverage.
:
:Two IF stages, an RF stage, a pair of 6V6s in push-pull, and a dynamic speaker! Were does the DC come from for the speaker's field coil? Usually, in AC sets, the field coil doubles as a choke in the power supply - but maybe this one comes straight off the 6-V battery circuit? I'm wondering if this chassis was adapted from a big, hunky ac-powered radio design? Do you have a car to put the radio in?
:
:Regarding the B+ voltage disparity. If there is any kind of weird waveforms riding on top of the rectifier output, a DMM will behave strangely - even one labeled true RMS. I have a Fluke 179, supposedly true RMS, but it is not - unless the hash is symmetric about the zero axis. But, are you using the DC scale, I assume? Look at the two voltages on a 'scope - that should tell all.
:
:But back to the shortwave bands. How in the world could they have been tuned and listened to while the car is moving? Even with somebody in the passenger seat operating the radio?
:


That 1947 document is a belated supplement - the Rider's for it is in vol 12, 1941, and shows the same snubber values. Yeah - I was wondering if someone tried to change to a different vibrator - but I suspect the snubber values have more to do with the transformer - so maybe I should return it to original???
Yes I was excited to see all the important SW bands except for 49m.
It was supposed to get its field coil current from the 6V supply, and B+ just had a resistor, so it was unrelated - but mine has a PM speaker, and it kind of looks original, or at least "very professionally installed".
No car for this one - but I'm excited to have it anyway! And yes it's a high gain radio - 2 IF's! I used a big Astron supply at work because I sold my super high output supply years ago.
I too was awfully surprised to see any shortwave car radios. The next year model was a 985794 - a really stripped down 6-tube radio. This makes me curious whether other manufacturers might have made some - I didn't look into Cadillac or Ford or others yet for this question.
Oh that last comment - I can imagine people were a lot more sensitive in those days about driving a car while fiddling with a radio - so this one is really something different!

Eddie

8/8/2013 9:55:54 AMDoug Criner
I'm thinking that the radio will be quite selective - maybe so much that the higher audio frequencies will get chopped off the sidebands. If so, when you go to align it, you may want to try stagger-tuning the stages.
8/8/2013 10:08:03 AMDoug Criner
One more thought - somebody with the right antique car might pay a tidy sum for a correct radio that works. I have no idea how many '41 or '42 Chevys are still around. I had a '46 Chevy, built right after the war, and it was a real dog. It had vacuum-assisted shift - maybe the '41s and '42s did too?

But, it would be interesting to know if the same year Caddies, Buicks, etc., had the same radio?

8/8/2013 5:37:14 PMMAG
:One more thought - somebody with the right antique car might pay a tidy sum for a correct radio that works. I have no idea how many '41 or '42 Chevys are still around. I had a '46 Chevy, built right after the war, and it was a real dog. It had vacuum-assisted shift - maybe the '41s and '42s did too?
:
:But, it would be interesting to know if the same year Caddies, Buicks, etc., had the same radio?

As far as I know, the only short-wave models in the GM line were 1941 Buick and 1941/42 Chevrolet.

1941 Buick 5-band model 980660, 8 tubes and synchronous vibrator. Not sure about a short-wave receiver for Buick in 1942, I don’t have any documentation for one.

1941 Chevrolet 5-band model 985697, and 1942 model 985794, both 9 tube radios. I have heard that the Delco short-wave models were manufactured by RCA.

Supposedly Philco made a short-wave converter for the aftermarket and some export models in 1941, a model SW-1 (source: “The Auto Radio, A Romantic Genealogy” by Matteson.). I have seen a friends push-button short-wave converter for post-war Ford export radios.

If one plans to re-cap one of the Delco 5-band radios, be aware that there are paper capacitors inside the antenna and RF coil shield cans (been there, replaced those, an ambitious project!)

Meade

:

8/8/2013 7:10:15 PMDoug Criner
MAG - Very interesting information. Those paper caps in the antenna and RF ckts probably don't see any voltage? But still, it would be nice to replace them.
8/14/2013 10:17:27 PMEddie
::One more thought - somebody with the right antique car might pay a tidy sum for a correct radio that works. I have no idea how many '41 or '42 Chevys are still around. I had a '46 Chevy, built right after the war, and it was a real dog. It had vacuum-assisted shift - maybe the '41s and '42s did too?
::
::But, it would be interesting to know if the same year Caddies, Buicks, etc., had the same radio?
:
:As far as I know, the only short-wave models in the GM line were 1941 Buick and 1941/42 Chevrolet.
:
:1941 Buick 5-band model 980660, 8 tubes and synchronous vibrator. Not sure about a short-wave receiver for Buick in 1942, I don’t have any documentation for one.
:
:1941 Chevrolet 5-band model 985697, and 1942 model 985794, both 9 tube radios. I have heard that the Delco short-wave models were manufactured by RCA.
:
:Supposedly Philco made a short-wave converter for the aftermarket and some export models in 1941, a model SW-1 (source: “The Auto Radio, A Romantic Genealogy” by Matteson.). I have seen a friends push-button short-wave converter for post-war Ford export radios.
:
:If one plans to re-cap one of the Delco 5-band radios, be aware that there are paper capacitors inside the antenna and RF coil shield cans (been there, replaced those, an ambitious project!)
:
:Meade
:
::
:
:
How big a project to get safely into the shield cans? It looks like I'll need to clean the bandswitch with Caig. I don't suppose it would be good enough to just squirt some into the holes - I don't know where the switch wafers are.

And what's the clutch and solenoid for? Mine is missing the solenoid - I guessed it was for motor tuning? Mine has all the vital stuff, but it's missing 2 pushbuttons and some of the pushbutton tuning mechanism. But I'm very pleased to have a pre-WW2 shortwave car radio.

Did you notice if your snubber capacitor was .008uF or .001uF??? And its resistor? (Mine were mounted to the 0Z4 socket.)

Eddie

8/15/2013 7:24:39 PMMAG
:::One more thought - somebody with the right antique car might pay a tidy sum for a correct radio that works. I have no idea how many '41 or '42 Chevys are still around. I had a '46 Chevy, built right after the war, and it was a real dog. It had vacuum-assisted shift - maybe the '41s and '42s did too?
:::
:::But, it would be interesting to know if the same year Caddies, Buicks, etc., had the same radio?
::
::As far as I know, the only short-wave models in the GM line were 1941 Buick and 1941/42 Chevrolet.
::
::1941 Buick 5-band model 980660, 8 tubes and synchronous vibrator. Not sure about a short-wave receiver for Buick in 1942, I don’t have any documentation for one.
::
::1941 Chevrolet 5-band model 985697, and 1942 model 985794, both 9 tube radios. I have heard that the Delco short-wave models were manufactured by RCA.
::
::Supposedly Philco made a short-wave converter for the aftermarket and some export models in 1941, a model SW-1 (source: “The Auto Radio, A Romantic Genealogy” by Matteson.). I have seen a friends push-button short-wave converter for post-war Ford export radios.
::
::If one plans to re-cap one of the Delco 5-band radios, be aware that there are paper capacitors inside the antenna and RF coil shield cans (been there, replaced those, an ambitious project!)
::
::Meade
::
:::
::
::
:How big a project to get safely into the shield cans? It looks like I'll need to clean the bandswitch with Caig. I don't suppose it would be good enough to just squirt some into the holes - I don't know where the switch wafers are.
:
:And what's the clutch and solenoid for? Mine is missing the solenoid - I guessed it was for motor tuning? Mine has all the vital stuff, but it's missing 2 pushbuttons and some of the pushbutton tuning mechanism. But I'm very pleased to have a pre-WW2 shortwave car radio.
:
:Did you notice if your snubber capacitor was .008uF or .001uF??? And its resistor? (Mine were mounted to the 0Z4 socket.)
:
:Eddie
:

Service information for Chevrolet 985697 is in Riders Chevrolet pages 12-9 through 12-14. There are instructions for coil removal and disassembly. Take very careful notes, especially of the order in which things come apart and the order of re-assembly.
If I remember correctly, the clutch and solenoid operated together when a push-button is pushed. The clutch solenoid released manual tuning shaft, allowing the tuner mechanism to move freely. The larger solenoid then moved the tuning bar to a preset position. All this is from looking at the drawing and from my memory of servicing the radio years ago.
The snubber/buffer capacitor is .008 at 1600 volts in series with the 15k-1 watt resistor, both mounted on the 0Z4 tube socket.
If you don’t find the Riders information, send me an email and I’ll scan the pages for you.
Meade

8/16/2013 9:04:29 PMEddie
::::One more thought - somebody with the right antique car might pay a tidy sum for a correct radio that works. I have no idea how many '41 or '42 Chevys are still around. I had a '46 Chevy, built right after the war, and it was a real dog. It had vacuum-assisted shift - maybe the '41s and '42s did too?
::::
::::But, it would be interesting to know if the same year Caddies, Buicks, etc., had the same radio?
:::
:::As far as I know, the only short-wave models in the GM line were 1941 Buick and 1941/42 Chevrolet.
:::
:::1941 Buick 5-band model 980660, 8 tubes and synchronous vibrator. Not sure about a short-wave receiver for Buick in 1942, I don’t have any documentation for one.
:::
:::1941 Chevrolet 5-band model 985697, and 1942 model 985794, both 9 tube radios. I have heard that the Delco short-wave models were manufactured by RCA.
:::
:::Supposedly Philco made a short-wave converter for the aftermarket and some export models in 1941, a model SW-1 (source: “The Auto Radio, A Romantic Genealogy” by Matteson.). I have seen a friends push-button short-wave converter for post-war Ford export radios.
:::
:::If one plans to re-cap one of the Delco 5-band radios, be aware that there are paper capacitors inside the antenna and RF coil shield cans (been there, replaced those, an ambitious project!)
:::
:::Meade
:::
::::
:::
:::
::How big a project to get safely into the shield cans? It looks like I'll need to clean the bandswitch with Caig. I don't suppose it would be good enough to just squirt some into the holes - I don't know where the switch wafers are.
::
::And what's the clutch and solenoid for? Mine is missing the solenoid - I guessed it was for motor tuning? Mine has all the vital stuff, but it's missing 2 pushbuttons and some of the pushbutton tuning mechanism. But I'm very pleased to have a pre-WW2 shortwave car radio.
::
::Did you notice if your snubber capacitor was .008uF or .001uF??? And its resistor? (Mine were mounted to the 0Z4 socket.)
::
::Eddie
::
:
: Service information for Chevrolet 985697 is in Riders Chevrolet pages 12-9 through 12-14. There are instructions for coil removal and disassembly. Take very careful notes, especially of the order in which things come apart and the order of re-assembly.
: If I remember correctly, the clutch and solenoid operated together when a push-button is pushed. The clutch solenoid released manual tuning shaft, allowing the tuner mechanism to move freely. The larger solenoid then moved the tuning bar to a preset position. All this is from looking at the drawing and from my memory of servicing the radio years ago.
: The snubber/buffer capacitor is .008 at 1600 volts in series with the 15k-1 watt resistor, both mounted on the 0Z4 tube socket.
: If you don’t find the Riders information, send me an email and I’ll scan the pages for you.
:Meade
:
:
Thank you - I could only guess what the solenoid and clutch were for. I do have the Rider's, and I found the United Motors bulletin (a 1947 supplement).

I still wonder about that "Supreme C-1" vibrator - since I can't cross reference it anywhere.

Next week I might have time to put an oscilloscope on the transformer primary and see whether it runs smoother with the correct snubber/buffer network. I found the Mallory MYE article about vibrators - I just need time to read it.

Eddie



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